I'm sure many of you would have already seen/hear Dworkin's rape speech.....

[thefinerthingsinlife]

here

I've never heard about it before. I came across it as Jenson mentions it in his book.

WOW! This women speaks with passion.

written consent? verbal? body language? are you saying that if someone grabs your bum affectionately it is analogous to having a glass shoved in your vagina? so that stat could be 3/4 of women have had their bum grabbed without them being asked first? really you are being utterly ridiculous.

That be made me cry to comealongpond.

Missing you are clearly missing the many points that have been made to you. You imput is not constructive and quite frankly it's rather tedious.

So we are going to have someone arguing that anything short of stranger rape involving a good kicking isn't really a problem.

So all the stuff that happens all the time, like being wanked at, groped, felt up, followed and verbally abused and all the rest of it, which happens from puberty to menopause (and sometimes outside those boundaries) isn't any kind of problem. From a schoolgirl being heckled by a group of men to show her breasts, to a teenager on a crowded bus with someone copping a good feel, to a woman being shoved up against a wall and assaulted, to a woman being masturbated at on an empty tube carriage. None of these things are a problem, obviously. Because if we saw them as a problem, we'd have to face up to the fact that the vast majority of women have had something of that ilk happen to them (or worse), and that it is a big problem. But we can't have that, can we. So we'll no-crime the 14 yo with some guy sticking his hand up her skirt on the bus, and we'll no-crime the woman who is shoved up against a wall and threatened with rape, and we'll no-crime the incident with the man masturbating at the woman on the train. And everything will be fine.

sakura your article doesn't seem to say what you said it said? An I missing something?

what the flipping hell are you talking about this thread has done nothing to convince me that dworking (and her fans, clearly) isn't completly mental.

Insulting people is always a good way to prove the point you are trying to make ay missing. So far you have called people on this thread "mental" on more than one occassion, "utterly ridiculous" and accussed others of lying.

Have you read the link in the OP? I'm guessing not.

As for, what am I talking about? I am talking about your assertion that figures that very high numbers of women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime are enormously inflated. Your claim is that those figures can only be correct if consensual and cheerful sexual contact is included. My point is that those figures can quite easily be correct if you stop and think for one second about everything that has happened to you and all of your friends in your life. Practically all females I know had been subject to some kind of unwanted sexual encounter involving a stranger before they were 20 and that's certainly not unusual. My life experience says that the stats are true, as do the life experiences of most women that I speak to. This stuff goes on all the time.

Your idea that the high figures are wildly inaccurate and can only be true if consensual acts are included in the statistic, only serves to minimise the experiences of the vast vast majority of women. Not helpful.

You might want to stick your fingers in your ears and say "lalalalalala" every time you hear a story of someone you know, or someone's daughter, or a work colleague, having something like this happen to them. I'm not going to.

oh yes I have been on wild nights out loads but I don't get home and in a fit of hungover depression start tallying off every drunken attempt at a snog, every briushed nipple, every 'accudental' arm touch or every bum squeeze as a 'sexual assault' if it happened at a classical music concert or in a library then it would be a bit odd, but not when everyone is pissed up, trying to get off with someone and going out specifically to flirt and mess around.

What have wild nights out to do with anything that I wrote?

I see we have someone here that not only believes that it's not sexual assault unless it's full on stranger rape, but also that women must ignore anything whatsoever that happens to them when they have had a drink? And possibly that women, in going out to have a drink somewhere "wild" as opposed to somewhere "safe" like a classical music concert () are consenting to be sexually assaulted?

"brushing nipples" sounds like something out of a soft core romance style book

In RL most women wear bras when they go out, and/or are in fairly warm places. You'd have to work pretty hard to locate nipples, let alone accidentally "brush" them

IME you're more likely to get a full and frank full-tit grab. The men in this neck of the woods don't seem to be the "brushing" types...

What I'm pointing out is that 99% of your '3/4 of all women' could be bum squeeze, brushing past one's breasts pulling you in for a kiss when you didn't exactly want to - all things that happen when people are learning the boudaries and messing about - to later mix them all up for shock effect with putting a glass into your vagina and full unmisguided rape isn't helpful and does make women feel afraid untill they see through the stats and realised that rather than living in a world of sexual violence and death to women as portrayed by some of you here with rape, assault and murder awaiting at every corner - in fact, most of them have already had their experience of 'sexual assault', laughed it off as clumsy adolescent behaviour and forgotten about it.

Some women, though, often who call themseleves feminists, want us all to live in a world where we keep exaggerating the risk, re-living our past experiences and turning them into crimes and outrages, and believing that there are mass slaughters of women 'for fun' around the world.

In fact in the mexican mass graves incidencts, most of the bodies were men. That is a perfect example of someone wanting everyone else to be fearful, feel unsafe and angry, when there is absolutely no need.

oh not mine - not so much now, but I used to have v. obvious nipples and boys would quite often brush past my breasts and give me little jolts!... I used to also do a bit of deliberate brushing myself when talking to a guy I fancied. I didn't think for a moment I was sexually assaulting him - but perhaps a book will be written one day which will make all the men go and 'realise' they have had a lifetime of being assaulted by women.....

n fact in the mexican mass graves incidencts, most of the bodies were men. That is a perfect example of someone wanting everyone else to be fearful, feel unsafe and angry, when there is absolutely no need.

Juarez is notorious for femicides, its shocking more publicity isnt drawn to it.
I typed in femicide capital of the world and this link came up.
www.alterinfos.org/spip.php?article675

I have never portrayed our world as rape, assault and murder waiting at every corner. I am a strong advocate of women giving two fingers to the "be afraid travel in gangs always get a cab" brigade, although I know many don't agree with me. Not least because women are most likely to be raped by someone that they know in a "safe" situation than by a stranger. And because I deplore that women are kept in a state of constant fear. If you are complaining about the message of constant fear, I suggest you start with the TFL cab advertising campaign, the police responses to recent high profile cases (women should continue to follow the usual advice and never travel alone after dark), and programs such as CSI. Don't look at me though, not something I'm doing.

I would also like to see the source of your statistics please that refute the ones being quoted on here. A link would be good. I would also like to repeat that the vast majority of women that I know have had (often more than once) a flashing incident, someone wanking at them, someone touching them intimately when they are on a bus or a train. That sort of thing. Do you seriously believe that women and girls should be "laughing off" these incidents rather than seeing them for what they actually are ie crimes. If you genuinely believe that the correct reaction for a 16yo girl to have to a man masturbating at her on a train carraige when there is no-one else around is to laugh it off, put it down to "clumsy adolescent behaviour" (how does that work for all the men who do this and are over about 17?) and think no more of it then we have nothing to talk about. I think that these incidents are matters for the police. They are crimes.

In the UK, anyway, the first part. Obviously there are large tracts of the world where if you are a woman these things are waiting for you eg when you go out to collect water for your children to drink.

Sue thanks for posting that link. It seems that violence against women is just seen as par for the course, normal, and not really a crime - that's the drift I got from the article. It's so sad.

I'm not minimising the real experiences, I'm challenging the massive exaggeration of very minor experiences, then the counting of those alongside serious experriences, adding them together and claiming that they are broadly similar. Its a bit like saying 'everyone experiences over 3000 serious accidents in their lifetime' because you are including splinters and grazes, then when someone challenges that saying 'Oh I see, you are saying that my father who was cut in two by a motorcycle was somehow only getting a splinter are you!!!' in response. Its just crazy, and it DOES add to a picture of fear and trepidation for women that isn't necessary. When I went to uni in a city I was amazed and elated that it was nothing like as dangerous going out and walking about as I had been led to believe. I was a frightened little mouse because I believed all that crap, and I was astonished at how women dared to go on gap years, to live with people they didn't know and get jobs and that fear controlled me for some time whilst other young women were gaining experience and enjoying themselves.