How do I teach DS (aged 9) about feminism?

[tougholdbird]

I find it easy to give my DD strong messages, and to help her avoid the 'princess mentality', but I find it harder to articulate a clear message for my 9 yr old DS on feminism. Welcome any help or ideas on this.

I'd be very interested in the responses too, as my son is 16 now.
I want to know if I've done it right so far.

I want to know what people suggest, as my son is only 9 months old so I've got plenty of time to get it wrong, try again, get it wrong again etc :)

I suppose one part of it is modelling the behaviour at home and in your friendships and speaking out about sexism. I've noticed that kids have a cast-iron sense of what's fair and unfair. Talking about how unfair sexism is might help?

It's hard because at least half of feminism is critical thinking: looking at how the world works and thinking "ok, why is it set up like that?" - and I don't think very young children are capable of that. All answers and suggestions will be gratefully pounced on by me and DH - we're n00bs at this whole parenting lark!

We've worked on the logical and fairness side of the argument, that's the was my DS's brain is wired and it makes sense to him.
I've used a lot of opportunities in the media and in RL to get him to question why things are the way they are and how they need to change. He has other strong female role models in his life, and some sexist and traditional males. Makes him think. He's read Living Dolls and seen some of the Youtube clips on image creation. He also knows something of how women are treated in other countries and cultures.
The difficulty is how to present the ideas without making a boy feel he's being attacked and accused on the basis of his sex, and making him defensive and therefore unwilling to be receptive.

I hang it on the racism hook.

All children are taught official anti-racism at school so they understand the concept that people were horrifically abused because of their colour and race and that as a hangover of those benighted times, we still have racism and non-white people as a group, have to deal with it. They also learn about the holocaust and anti-Semitism and how so many Jews were murdered purely because of their relgiion and race. It's not such a big jump to understanding that abuse happened and still happens to women just because of their sex.

I like the fair play argument and the racism analogy.

What I'd also like is a sort of easy to understand one liner which isn't 'girls are as good as boys', as he can counter this with the 'but they can't run as fast' type response.

"But running fast isn't actually that useful"

It depends what you are running away from. You don't have to be fast, just faster than the one behind you.
I've also tried to ensure that his manners are unisex, that he will hold open doors and carry stuff for someone who needs a hand, rather than a female.

tough would it work twisting "but they can't run as fast" around a bit too - does he have any physically disabled friends/a grandad with a walking stick? A quick "Well grandad can't run very fast, but that doesn't mean we don't love him and think he's an important person, does it?" I'd love (in my ideal world, the one where DS sleeps through the night and I get a haircut this century) to be able to learn how to teach that we value people because they're people, damnit not because of their running/jumping/other skills.

Also question whether there's any reason to believe that girls of that age really 'can't run as fast' or whether we just assume that!

I have been careful in how I have brought up ds and dd with regard feminisim. A big thing I think is to lead by example with yourself and their father.

Yes completely agree with rainbow.

Walking the walk is more important than talking the talk.

But talking the talk is good as well of course.

I found toy adverts a really good opener for discussing gender stereotypes and preconceptions based on 'traditional' roles. What I do with my 2 DSs (10 & 11) is to ask them why they think some toys are marketed in the way that they are, which also ties in nicely with some of the work they do around advertising in school. The Zhu-Zhu pets ads were a godsend for this, much as they made me foam at the mouth, since they tended to run 2 ads together. One ad was for the pink, fluffy hamsters things with lots of little girls combing the fur of the hamsters and having a hospital to care for them etc, with plinky plonky happy music, whereas the other ad was all action fight rargh! With camo coloured hamsters going into a battle arena.

Since having a couple of conversations with them about how gender lines are portrayed in the media, they have become really good at spotting slightly more subtle markers and commenting on them.

It seems to be paying off. I took them to see the wrestling last night and DS2 was getting quite annoyed when the Divas (the female wrestlers) came out as loads of blokes in the audience were wolf whistling. He asked the guy nearest us doing it if he thought that was why the woman was there, and wouldnt he be annoyed if all the women in the audience kept shouting at the male wrestlers to give them a kiss.

The Theory of promoting equality for all seems to be the easiest way of getting across to boys that everyone deserves to be treated equally, but it doesn't currently work like that and that isn't fair, which is why we need to keep working on promoting equality and the best way for him to help with that is to be a walking advert for it.

The toy stuff is so true, there was an interesting link on the 'intelligent conversation' thread, I think, to some research on toy adverts.

So for DS, how about 'everyone is different, but no one group of people is more important, or has more right to be heard than any other group. And we should not make assumptions about what any group of people want or think'.

Hmmm, hardly snappy is it? But it is the start, maybe, of a conversation I can have with him.

How about 'everyone is different but we all have the same right to be heard' or something similar?

girls are different to boys, but their rights are just the same.

Thanks for all the input - it does help to talk it over!

Interesting thread. Like you I have found it easy to give dd strong messages.

I recently dug out all of her baby/toddler toys for ds and was pleasantly surprised at how many diggers, cars, fire engines and general gender neutral (or what other people wold call boy) toys there were. He will also have access to her dolls house and other 'girl' toys.

Dh has also made lots of stuff with her eg space rockets so that she learns to make stuff and be creative. We have encouraged lego as well. The type of toys children have access to can encourage and limit development of qualites eg empathy and competitiveness. So I want both my children to have access to a full range.

Sorry, I know that you are asking about a 9 year old but I guess I'm just getting my thoughts in order.

Dh and I show an equal relationship. Dd recently drew a picture of her Dad doing the hoovering. We constantly correct any assumptions eg that a Doctor would be 'he'.

By the way, my dd likes to know what person's favourite colour is. She knows that mine is green and dh's is pink.

I've got to run but will come back and read what others have to say.

It's harder when they get older and they come across the pack mentality of other boys though. I'm lucky that mine is not much of a pack animal and tends to think for himself and act according to his own rules.
His sister is 4 years older than him, so he has grown up knowing her friends,both male and female, and seen how they interact and talk to each other.

loads of girls run faster than him, i bet. but they've just been conditioned into thinking that pe is macho and in order to conform they have to walk/ jog and chat like the proper girls.

i would have stuffed him at running when i was 9.

i used to get boys making official complaints and accusing me of cheating. because how on earth could a mere girl have beaten them?

but you seem to be doing brilliantly

the pack mentality is responsible for my ds giving up ballet. he still dances, but not ballet. i don't know if the boys at school know or not (he's 9 btw). that 'thinking for yourself' is a valuable skill, and brilliant if he's developed it already. peer pressure can be a terrible thing. (and a great one, but in this respect, terrible...)

Actually we had an interesting discussion at uni the other day about segregation in sport. If you look at the leading sports stars there actually isn't much difference between the top men and the top women. Someone cited a case where in one country the fastest running woman was subjected to tests because they thought there was a chance she was born a man :(

exactly bertie - it's exactly the same thing that i experienced but with bells on. no-one actually accused me of being a boy just that i must have cheated on the course somehow/ must have taken a short cut. because clearly girls can't run fast. same thing happened when i did my military training. no-one formally accused me of cheating, but there was a lot of narrowing of eyes.

meh. girls don't run fast. not 'can't'.

and if a girl does, and the reaction is disbelief at best or hostility at worst, there's a pretty good chance she won't bother again. which is really sad.

i do think it's a bloody cheek that the belief is so deeply ingrained that public bodies are demanding invasive medical checks though. and it starts at 9 with 'girls can't run as fast'.

Here - it was only 2 years ago as well! www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/aug/19/caster-semenya-undergo-gender-verification-test

And this is awful - www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/jul/30/olympicgames2008.gender

yeah - i remember it at the time. i saw her on something a month or so ago (it wasn't specifically about the gender thing) but she was talking about how it had affected her. i don't think she's racing at the moment - not sure if she is allowed?

i have no idea at all whether she was born female/ intersex or whatever, and i think there was hormone treatment or something unusual going on, but it was more the public outcry that i was horrified by. 'she looks like a man'. ffs.

i hope she gets pg and has a great big fat gurgly photogenic baby, and does a massive photocall.

i so want her to be a woman. is that wrong?

I also agree with Rainbow about leading by example whenever you possibly can. DD observes me setting about all manner of tasks, from cooking tea to doing a full time job, and sees her dad doing pretty much the same. I think this gives a clear message which helps as a solid foundation for appreciating feminist principles.

However, I've a feeling you may have been asking for something a little deeper than this. My feeling is that a nine year old probably wouldn't benefit from indepth discussions and all you can really offer is a balanced view of whatever situations arise which will hopefully correct any skewering of the less-than-desirable ideas society promotes. I think you are probably doing this anyway!

Nine might be a bit young for this but I'm currently stockpiling films to show to my DD when she's old enough (she's only 7 at the moment) that I think will inspire her. Thelma & Louise is one that had a huge effect on me, and
we just saw Made In Dagenham which is all about the struggle for equal pay and is very powerful too.

Like blackcurrants and ephiny's responses to the 'girls can't run as fast' argument!