Talk to me about girl gangs?

[SkinittingFluffyBunnyBonnets]

Sorry if it's been done...I was hoping to hear some opinions and maybe to be given some food for thought.

If people on here would care to share their opinions then I could ask some questions...I can't get my head around the issues at hand really.

How does the advent of violent girl-gangs affect the Feminist cause? I know there have always been gangs of female organised criminals...right back through history, but I think they've usually been more about robbery and more "intelligent" crimes than about down and dirty muggings, beatings and petty theft.....am I right?

Why have there recently been more violent girl gangs? And why do you think there has been a sexal element to some crimes? Encouraging friends who are boys to rape or sexually assualt the victims for instance?

Anyone?

I don't think this has been done.

Need to have a think. I suspect there is a 'surviving in the patriarchy' element to this phenomenon.

I am not sure robbery is a more intelligent crime though - it is still a theft that involves violence.
With regards to sexual assault, it is usually about control and power rather than any sexual gratification....so not sure gender is relevant to that particular offence.

No sorry..I wasn't lumping robbery in with more intelligent crimes...I worded it badly Scurry....

I do think gender is applicable here because it's a relatively new phenomenen. I am sure it HAS happened...women encouraging the rape of another woman. But hstorically it is rare amng women and certainly young women in their teens...so that's the very point of my question really...that and hearing general thoughts on the subject.

Beachcomber...is that a phrase I should have heard of? I am new to Feminism so dont' know much at all...which is why I came here really....girl gangs have been on my mind and wanted the opinions of some women who are educated about Feminism...I have looked up patriarchy though since joining MN a few months ago.

I think that 'girl gangs' tend to spring up in areas of male gang activity, possibly in response to the rather horrible treatment of females by those gangs. It is still not a liberating phenomenon though, as it reflects the poverty of aspiration and general disenfranchisement which pervades the social strata from which the gangs spring.

I think that's a good point BOF...I also read that most of the girls were suffering from extremely deprived home lives and abuse as children. But why were there no girl gangs before? Abuse at home was as common in the 50s and 60s no?

And there were male gangs then too.

The phrase 'doing what you have to to survive in the patriarchy' or variations of, is used in feminist language as shorthand for a phenomenon that I will try to describe.

It means that sometimes women will behave in ways that can seem anti-feminist of even anti-women but they are doing so in order to get by or survive under the constraints of a male dominated society.

The phrase can be used for less serious things like shaving one's legs so as not to stand out and attract unwanted attention. It can also be used for more serious things like your gang example.

To expand - if you live in an area of gang culture where women are subject to sexual violence, you may well incite that sexual violence on somebody else either because you have been though it and are re-enacting, or because you want to deflect attention away from yourself in order to protect yourself.

Ah! Thank you Beachcomber. So they may attack weaker girls...in order to provide "Prey" for the male gang members?

I know that in gang culture it was usual until fairly recently for girls to be on the fringes...of the male gang...and that they would sleep with the boys in return for drugs and food....but they recieved no no respect...in fact they were/still are abused by the males.

I can imagine a girl gang culture growing out of that. It's an easy step from having sex with X in order to gain favour....to offering a girl/vicitm who has done a perceived wrong in order to gain a more complex favoured position.

Bump

I thought your midnight post was so good, I couldn't add anything useful

If you're interested in my witterings, I have frequently thought that violent girl gangs have grown through feminism, in a way. Girls now feel able to show strength, in terms of what 'strength' means where they live, where their mums put up and shut up. To me, the social conditions that foster gang culture are far more important than the gender of the gangs ... for as long as violence dominates certain communities, I guess I'm pleased that girls are now fighting.

I want to offer my regular de-bunk to the female = friendly myth while I'm here. Girls can be, and are, fucking vicious. At my almost-posh, single-sex school, several girls were found guilty of ABH. One in my year was sent down for attempted murder (with a scalpel). Women are NOT incapable of violence, or even especially averse to it. A bigger question might be "Why do we consider it odd that girls form violent gangs in violent places?"

Yes garlic, I agree. I'm not old...but not young (38) and where I grew up in the 80s was particularly deprived....not in the sense that we had gang violence but girls certainly fought...it wasn't looked upon as unusual in any way.

I suppose the level of violence that these girls are willing to display is far more confronting though....we didn't use knives and we never gave our gang a name.

What about Teddy Girls? Now better know, along with the Teddy Boys for their flamboyant edwardian style dress, but notorious at the time for vicious gang violence.

I think the main violence was meted out by the males though KingofHighVis....Teddy Girls..especially in the 50s were no so much into violence. They were very shocking...with the haircuts and clothing...but from what I've read they were mostly into looking cool and different.

Their short hair cuts and mens suit jackets were a massive challenge in those days when the rest of the women were fluttering around in full circle skirts and ultra feminine outfits generally.

We were skinheads, c.1970. I don't think slashing other girls with scalpels and broken bottles counts as cheering the boys on in a cute frock.

I'd better hastily add that I didn't! I was threatened with bottles and knives, though, for "looking at her" and other heinous crimes.

I wonder whether girl gangs have always existed but their antics have never been reported or acknowledged in the same way.....maybe it is just an absence of statistics rather than it being more prevalent now.

Interesting point, sf! I can remember some murder trials in my youth, where the judge would insist a woman could not have committed the awful crime. Perhaps all that stereotyping protected women from discovery? It's quite a thought.

On the wider point, I think this comes back to one of my pet hates - why should society be surprised by abhorrent behaviour in girls? Why do we expect women to behave better than men? The undercurrent in every media article about girl gangs or violent crime perpetrated by women is that it's somehow more shocking because it is women.

That said, in many of the most vicious male gangs in London, there is often a female member of that gang who is regarded as the "property" of the boys and expected to sexually service the lot of them. So many of the girls are care-home absconders and have already suffered guardian abuse in their young lives .

That's right WWIFN. It is sometimes assumed that girls aren't capapble of violence..hence whenthey DO commit terrible acts, sentencing is sometimes very much harsher.

But I also think that the level of violence which girls are displaying is escalating and I was wondering why...I know girls have always been capapble of murder, assualt etc....but the most recent crimes in the news have been quite shocking...organising the rape of their victims in advance etc....

Civilian violence is getting worse, isn't it? We caught the current form of gang culture from LA, but I'm pretty sure the originals weren't quite as scuzzy as what happens now. I'm far from convinced it has nothing to do with digital games & gory films - desensitisation occurs regardless of the medium.

I'm sure that "inclusion" is the answer for both sexes, but wouldn't like the job of making it happen :(

SFBB - Myra Hindley had no problem organising the rape of her victims, and there's nothing to suggest she was the first :( What about Victorian child prostitutes, who got favours by kidnapping other young girls for abuse? The awful thing is, children will do practically anything for approval - they can't be expected to have a moral compass. A 16-year-old murderess is still a child.

Making myself very angry now! Off to find a fluffy thread