On woman's hour - woman seeking abortion should receive counselling from GP rather than BPAS

[Bumperlicioso]

Was listening to WH earlier and they were discussing this. Details from the bbc website below:

, Abortion Law, New Attempts to Tighten Rules Around Terminations

Nadine Dorries MP and Frank Field MP have put forward amendments to the Health and Social Care Bill currently passing through the Commons that would mean a tightening up of the rules around abortion. They claim that the current system means pregnant women receive advice from organisations such as British Pregnancy Advisory Service, who are ?abortion providers with a vested interest?, consequently they say, they cannot give the independent advice that women should get. So are women not receiving enough independent advice? Ann Furedi, Chief Executive of BPAS and Nadine Dorries join Jane Garvey to discuss'

Am I being naive to think this is just another hoop for women to jump through and surely no one really has a 'vested interest' in convincing woman to have abortions. Are GPs really qualified to give this advice? That is what Dorries seemed to be suggesting should happen.

I had a similar experience to slug

Doctor VERY judgemental about my choice and wouldn't refer me to the NHS - said that 'there wasn't much available to women my age' I was 18

all in all made the whole thing much more stressful than it needed to be

That is sad anon

I'd like the services for women considering termination or unsure about a pregnancy to be much more supportive no matter what. I'd like women to have the opportunity to really know what is available for them if they continue a pregnancy and what is available if they terminate.

Haven't read the whole thread, but I think many GPs would be far too judgemental to be trusted with this job.

I am currently pregnant with DC3 (a planned pregnancy) but felt very sick when I went to see my GP at 6 weeks. So I was not bursting with enthusiasm when I told my GP I was pregnant. Consequently she responded by asking me whether I wanted to have the baby. I said yes, and her reaction was "Oh I am so glad you said that as I hate having to deal with people who want an abortion". And that was a female GP.

Sorry, I will read the thread but wanted to post before I forget: it would be nice if women seeking abortion received counselling full stop. They're meant to, but it doesn't always happen. Contrary to some idiots'-- popular opinion, making abortion available without providing women with an opportunity to discuss the decision is not a victory for feminism.

First, I'm pro-choice. I've had an abortion when I was considerably longer - was deeply unpleasant but then I've yet to meet anyone for whom it wasn't unpleasant. I've never met anyone who went into it 'lightly'.

Second, I'm married to a GP who will refer people for abortions but will not sign the piece of paper saying 'this woman should have an abortion' for religious reasons. Flame away if you wish.

In the case of someone asking for one, he immediately brings in a pro-choice female colleague (as in, within 5 minutes wherever possible, certainly won't send them home without them seeing someone else) and does not in any way lecture, reprimand or indeed inform the patient of his views. He simply explains that a second doctor needs to be involved for this. No morality = well supported patient who is none the wiser about DH's religious views.

This is the way they're meant to do it.

The simple fact is that if we forbade people who will not refer for abortions from becoming doctors, we would have even more of a shortage of GPs than we currently do. In many practices in which DH has worked, 8 out of 10 doctors will not do these referrals.

I'm not exaggerating about the number of doctors who we'd lose from the profession. They're dropping out of the profession like flies as it is.

Em, I meant 'no moralising'. Clearly practicing medicine without morality would be awful.

experiences vary so much obviously, i got pregnant as a 20yr old student - i was on the pill but was sick so used a condom which we fumbled (drunk) so i took the MAP. i did NOT want to be pregnant. i did get pregnant. no way was i interested in continuing the pregnancy.

i got an appointment and went to my GP and saw a locum who told me to go away and think about it and come back, i went away, got another appointment and came back and talked to another doctor who said 'are you sure' 'are you really sure' and eventually got me a hospital appointment.

Doctors, admins and nurses took my details and examined me and all of them asked 'are you sure' 'are you really sure' 'is this what you want' and i explained over and over that it was.

All this time i'm getting bigger and bigger boobs, feeling like crap and suffering morning sickness.

Eventually i had my termination. It was the right thing for us at that time. But i would never say that it was 'easy' or i was 'rushed' or that i didn't have time to think it through.

I meant to add that GPs really aren't the people who should be providing this service. They don't provide any other counselling service because they're not trained counsellors, and this should by no means be an exception. Making GPs do this would mean really short-changing women at an intensely vulnerable time in their lives.

Well it's fairly clear from this thread that many GPs aren't very good at supporting women who have worries about their pregnancies right now, so I doubt very much that they would do better if they were put in a position of more responsibility, plus given FrozenNorthPole's post I doubt very much that hey would want to. Or have the time given that they will be shortly running the whole of the NHS.

My family doctor gave me a lecture when I went to see him for the MAP - I would not have wanted to talk to him about even the possibility of an abortion, and it actually made me very uncomfortable seeing him again about anything (luckily he moved to another practice).

I think that there should be easy access to a variety of advisory services, all of whom should be up front about what they offer and why.

Nothing to add to what's already been said, but just wanted to offer my sympathy to everyone who's had a horrible experience in this area.

Me too...what sunshineandbooks said.

Anon, I'm so sorry you had such an awful experience. It sounds nothing short of barbaric, and I hope you can find some peace.

I'm appalled that women have had lectures when going to their GP. I would never go to a GP for a referral but can understand that some women don't have a choice.

I'm pro-choice FrozenNorthPole and you will not get a flaming from me.

I think counselling should be available as an option but I wouldn't support Dorries or any other antichoice fuckwit.
And if you are anti-choice to the point that you feel entitled to try to stop other women having abortions, yes you are a loon. A foetus-worshipping fuckwitted loon. Other women's choices are none of your business.

Re. counseling being optional ...something that I think should be mandatory is for the woman to have some time alone with either the GP who refers her or the abortion provider. I was never able to talk to anyone without my mum and boyfriend being there - I mean, I could have requested it but that rather destroys the point (what I'm worried about is coercion from families) - it seems to me that's something that should have to happen, and I don't know how that would work with counseling being optional.

lrd i thought other people being with you was optional... i went on my own, so not sure what happens if you attend with someone else.

also, i think counselling should be optional, because some women know absolutely that they want an abortion and to counsel them is to suggest they don't know their own minds or are doing something wrong. it's a bit like in the US where they are forcing women to look at scans before deciding to abort.

i think it has to be process which can be tailored to meet individual need.

coercion from families is big concern though, especially if the woman does not have much emotional maturity or is very young.

there probably should be a part of the process (if there isn't already) where it is just the woman concerned so the hcp can check it is their decision to proceed or not and discuss any concerns they might have privately.

born, do I write in a really confusing way? Sorry!

I just said, I think it should be mandatory to have some time alone. I think you misunderstood and thought I was saying the opposite?

nope. it's me! it's sunday morning and am distracted by a small person!

sorry!

Don't worry!

It just really hit me afterwards that there had been no point when any medical person insisted on seeing me alone - sure, I could have asked, but it did make me wonder what happens if you are in a very controlling or abusive relationship with a partner or (if you're young), have very controlling parents. I wonder if I would have had an abortion if I'd been able to ask questions alone - I was told to talk through the options in front of my mum and boyfriend, and so for example when I asked about adoption my boyfriend piped up saying he felt strongly that was a bad idea; when I asked about how it would work if I kept the baby the doctor told me I would almost certainly end up losing my boyfriend if I did that ... of course I should have anticipated this and said could I see him alone, but perhaps this doesn't always occur to people in what I think must always be a fairly emotional, scary situation?

I imagine it could work both ways, too ... in my example I ended up having the abortion but I could see the opposite situation happening where a woman felt pressured to continue with the pregnancy.

I agree, I think that the woman should have some time alone with someone, not just to check if they are 100% happy with the course of action, but also to ask about domestic violence etc. I'm just not sure this should be termed counseling, but there should also be the option for the woman to choose if she wants to speak to someone about her choices with or without anyone accompanying her - and that she should be asked this when she is on her own.

So perhaps you go in on your own first, have that chat on your own, and then those accompanying you are either asked to come in too, or not as the case may be.

Yes, I think the same nooka. It's perhaps not the same, but I remember my friend's dad (a doctor) telling us about a woman who'd come in to have her baby, had her husband as translator for her, and very sadly it was known the baby would die shortly after birth. The woman became very upset and eventually they realized they needed to get another translator in as the husband was obviously not translating properly - turned out he had not told her the baby was going to die and was now telling her it was her fault. Just awful. It seems there's a lot of potential for people to take advantage of women in vulnerable situations like this - obviously no-one could say what this lady would have decided to do about her pregnancy had she known, but to find out like that must have been awful.

Yes family members translating is known to be a bad thing, but sadly still happens frequently due to lack of resources (translation services are very expensive).

Not a good idea, GP I was due to see was anti-abortion and patients had left his surgery in tears before. Luckily in my case the nurse I saw before appt for pee and bloods spotted that I was booked to see that GP and switched me over. I was only a teenager at the time and was feeling very vulnerable, the BPAS were very balanced and just asked me how I was feeling, what support I had and what I wanted to do.

To be entirely fair, my brother translated for his wife recently, and the midwives said they had never seen such a helpful birth partner.

But yes, it happens badly - there's just so much scope for men to take advantage of women here. THat sounds blunt but it is simply the truth: it's a woman's body but so often men think they should have the controlling say.

So although I think Dorries is a knob of the highest order, I also think we need to finnd a way for women to talk about abortions.

I'm surprised that you weren't spoken to alone, LRD. When I had my termination my boyfriend was sent out of the room so the nurse could talk to me alone. That wasn't at a GP though, was privately.

Nadine Dorries makes me seethe.

When I was contemplating an abortion I was offered several counselling appointments. It seems that these offers are not the norm, which is sad, as though not all women need or would accept them, that they should be available seems important.

I never went through my GP for this though. Used the family planning clinic as first point of access as they have drop in service for all services so I could get seen quicker.