So there was this bloke in the women's toilets right.....

[EllieG]

I got in an argument in the pub last night, and my friend said I was being uptight, and possibly, maybe I was, but see what you think.

It's little, but it annoyed me. Drunk, loud man standing in middle of women's toilets flirting with girl from hen do. I walk in, get irritated (cos it's not like the men's ones were busy and he nipped in as desperate, or was being unobtrusive - he was kinda making a Big Loud Point IYSWIM) and I say to him

'These are the women's toilets. Please leave.' and when he dawdled
'Off you go please' (said in brisk school-teacher tones).

He said I was patronising (which I admit, I may have been) but left.

He was on the stairs when I came out and as I went round the corner he said, 'Big arse, nice hair'

I went back and said
'Excuse me - did you say something?' as was irritated because he didn't say it TO me, and he repeated this. I told him he was rude and inappropriate and that my asking him to leave hardly warranted him making nasty personal comments, and left it.

It didn't bother me what some silly bloke thinks of my arse, and possibly I was patronising, and unwise. But DID annoy me that my polite challenge was met with someone insulting my backside. Rude.

My friend said I was uptight and I should have left him in the toilet and not said anything and I brought it on myself.

I think you mean "semblance".

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=harpymarx.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/feminism.jpg&imgrefurl=harpymarx.wordpress.com/2009/11/27/feminism-isnt-it-about-solidarity-and-unity-for-all-women/&usg=__gN6IaR1PbbsfLfQZNzjM0PUTL3Q=&h=600&w=365&sz=23&hl=en&start=1&zoom=1&tbnid=HQ33tVdvEeKtNM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=82&ei=YYSTTb7KEcal8QO1tIHqAw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfeminism%2Bsymbol%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DX%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D619%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Symbol of Intelligence

AyeRobot

AyeRobot, yes!!

I like it AyeRobot

fresh2death - it's a reasonable point, he was being a drunken tosser and I clearly annoyed him. What annoyed me though was that I felt that by being in the toilet to start off with he was being disrespectful to women (some women could have felt intimidated by it) and then by responding to my non-personal challenge with a personal attack focussed on my physique he was being a misogynistic arse. He may not have acted that way when not drunk, but most nice men, nice people, aren't sexist idiots, drunk or not. But then I suppose I've done stupid things when drunk, so maybe it was out of character.

I think you're confused Fresh2Death - she's not asking why he behaved like that, but thanks for explaining anyway. She's wanting to know whether she was justified in how she reacted to his behaviour.

Love it btw AyeRobot :)

The guy was clearly a cock and got what he deserved.

To add another perspective though (as a bloke) in my younger clubbing days I used to hate the fact that so many women felt entitled to use the gents to avoid the queues in the women's. My heart would sink going in to find a group of loud, pissed up girls in there. Without even the benefit of a cubicle you then have to stand there with your penis out, trying to overcome stage fright while they make sarky comments with their mates about whichever men happened to be standing there. It might be difficult to understand but it was also intimidating, and I felt that I couldn't object because it would be seen as "unmanly" to admit to being bothered about it. It was always a case of just put up with it, smile and pretend to "enjoy the joke". For all the supposed empathy skills of women, i never saw much evidence of them in those situations !

Yeah it's not great, Nesbo. I've been one of those girls, but to be fair a) we're not really a physical threat b) we go in in groups because it's safer c) there is usually about one toilet for every 500 women (it seems) so desperation takes over.

WHY are women always undercatered for when it comes to toilets? Why are there so often ridiculous queues for the ladies but very rarely for the gents?

Ellie G - well done, you handled it well.

Nesbo - completely agree - works the other way too and I am being intimidating, rude and disrespectful is acceptable when anybody does it - though the safety thing is an element you may concede is not such an issue for a male (though can be I accept).

EllieG - you are right, I don't ever remember feeling physically unsafe, but being pretty non-confrontational I never wanted to challenge a group of girls because I've seen how quickly the mood can change when you challenge a group of them and I wouldn't have wanted to be on the receiving end of that (even if it was only a verbal battering). Then again, in London I've also come across all girl gangs, particularly on public transport at night, that I can honestly say I have been physically afraid of! They seem to have learnt very well from obnoxious guys how to dominate a space and intimidate the people around them.

I guess the worse thing about my girls in the loo anecdote is that it feels humiliating, and yet you don't feel that that feeling is "allowed", its not legitimate and the only possible response is to accept it without saying anything. That always felt a bit crap.

Just re-read my previous post and had lots of typos, so made no sense! Glad you got the gist anyway nesbo.

You're right - there's more than one way to feel threatened and humiliated, and the point is that no one should invade another person's space in that way, or make disparaging comments, or verbally abuse. And sexism is not just the preserve of men. It seems that some women have taken the language of choice and empowerment and have used it as a licence to behave badly - so called 'ladette' behaviour, which actually just reinforces sexist notions IMO. It's nasty and it's wrong, and does nothing to challenge the fundamental problems of anyone (male or female) displaying this kind of unpleasantness. And if you had reacted by showing you were annoyed you would not have been wrong, though I can understand why you might not have felt able to do so.

Good job EllieG. I hope your friend comes round; I can quite see that her response to it is one of the most disappointing aspects of an already unpleasant incident.

Thanks! I forwarded her a thing dittany posted about assaults etc in toilets. She still says I was uptight though. Hey ho.