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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

So there was this bloke in the women's toilets right.....

67 replies

EllieG · 27/03/2011 22:41

I got in an argument in the pub last night, and my friend said I was being uptight, and possibly, maybe I was, but see what you think.

It's little, but it annoyed me. Drunk, loud man standing in middle of women's toilets flirting with girl from hen do. I walk in, get irritated (cos it's not like the men's ones were busy and he nipped in as desperate, or was being unobtrusive - he was kinda making a Big Loud Point IYSWIM) and I say to him

'These are the women's toilets. Please leave.' and when he dawdled
'Off you go please' (said in brisk school-teacher tones).

He said I was patronising (which I admit, I may have been) but left.

He was on the stairs when I came out and as I went round the corner he said, 'Big arse, nice hair'

I went back and said
'Excuse me - did you say something?' as was irritated because he didn't say it TO me, and he repeated this. I told him he was rude and inappropriate and that my asking him to leave hardly warranted him making nasty personal comments, and left it.

It didn't bother me what some silly bloke thinks of my arse, and possibly I was patronising, and unwise. But DID annoy me that my polite challenge was met with someone insulting my backside. Rude.

My friend said I was uptight and I should have left him in the toilet and not said anything and I brought it on myself.

OP posts:
Original poster
EllieG · 28/03/2011 22:07

Thank you! This thread is a very positive place to be. I like feminists Grin

p.s. I agree dittany - I was having an argument with a police officer the other day who was trying to say that a victim of a sexual assault was a bit stupid for being in town late at night and drunk. How very dare she, says I, clearly it is up to us women to do all we can to avoid being raped, and if we are stupid enough to walk in the dark or whatever then we deserve what we get. Grrr. But I guess that's another argument and another thread.

OP posts:
AliceWorld · 28/03/2011 22:12

Well done Ellie. Grin

We absolutely need to challenge behaviour like this, and not run scared cos we might get punched. And that comes from someone who did once get punched.

AliceWorld · 28/03/2011 22:13

Wow I made that bold without even trying. Weird Confused

Original poster
EllieG · 28/03/2011 22:38

It seemed to be in the right place though.

I have another question too -(I realise am hijacking my own thread, maybe I should re-title this thread the it's-all-about-EllieG-question thread it's just as I say, have been doing a bit of feminist reading recently and is really making me question a lot of the things I do/did)

Where do feminists stand on having sex with someone when you don't really want to? (that may seem obvious, but hear me out a sec) To put it in context - my ex-h used to want to have sex a lot, and often I would just because he would be in such a foul mood if I didn't. He was never abusive, am not suggesting that I was forced, but at times it was uncomfortable and on one occasion I remember I told him explicitly that I did not want to but he did anyway, and only stopped when I was crying. Lots other times I agreed because it was easier than dealing with his mood.

Now, I was talking to someone who said 'well sometimes in marriage you have to give them what they want' and implied it was part of give and take. Now I thought, yes, there's a point, and I guess sometimes with current DH I'm sometimes not massively in the mood, but do anyway, because it works both ways if I'm up for it and he's not, and is always loving and I love him etc.

Where is the line? I didn't feel abused, though I was very unhappy sometimes. Where does choice to make someone else happy become control and stop being a loving action? Any thoughts?

OP posts:
InmaculadaConcepcion · 29/03/2011 09:38

I would say that point where you said you didn't want to and he did anyway, not stopping until you started to cry is definitely abuse - attempted rape, as the definition is sex using coercion (actually it's more precise than that, but if you explicitly were NOT consenting and he carried on anyway, that falls under the legal definition of rape).

But if the coercion is emotional, you could still define it as abusive IMO, although I realise the law probably wouldn't see it that way.

I suspect how you felt about the situation is very pertinent, though. If you felt uncomfortable about the situation as you say, then I would define that as abusive. You should not be made to feel uncomfortable about having sex with someone. You were clearly doing it to appease your ex, not because you actually wanted to. And his foul mood was a way of punishing you/pressuring you into doing something you were not inclined to do ie have sex.

I think it's different from those times (we all have them) when we're not really in the mood, but know it would be better for our relationship to accede to our partner's desire for sex, even if our own preference would be to read a book or go to sleep a little earlier. Especially if it works both ways and our partner is just as willing to accede to our desires even if they are feeling less than enthusiastic. IME, after those situations I usually feel pleased I made the effort because it's good to express physical intimacy within a relationship and the "can't be bothered" thing can be very damaging after a while.

I see your point about where do you draw the line....well, I think that's whether you feel comfortable about the situation or not.
If it was "well, that wasn't so bad, was it?" after sex and you feel happy, fine.
If you feel wrong about it, it ^was wrong.

Does that make sense? No doubt one of the others will be along at some point to put it all more succinctly....!

sakura · 29/03/2011 12:36

I thought you handled it brilliantly.

I'm not sure if society was better in the days when men used to be chivalrous to women in public but look at porn in private, because society was so hypocritical . They'd be polite to women's faces, but women were still seen as the sex class and therefore not taken seriously as people.
In those days women were ignorant of the way men saw them, but it was still real women being used in porn Sad But they were regarded as "other" women, not like his nice wife and daughter, so men [and women] compartmentalized the sex industry and it wasn't seen as a social problem that affects everyone
Hope I'M making sense.

sakura · 29/03/2011 12:37

a social problem created by male punters, obviously

Original poster
EllieG · 29/03/2011 18:48

It seems it still is that way to a certain extent though sakura doesn't it? Women in the sex industry are still seen as 'other' the difference is now that all women are supposed to act like porn stars in the bedroom or they are somehow failing. But yes, to a certain extent perhaps the obvious hypocrisy re the 'public' face has changed and now it's publicly acceptable (in some groups) to treat all women like sexual playthings, if a man is so minded.

ImC - thank you for your thoughts - I realise was a bit off-piste off the main thread, but it was just something that's been on my mind, and while I had people to ask, I thought I would. I think you are right - it depends how you feel. And whether you classify something as abusive is a fine line sometimes....I could have said no more firmly and indeed I actually said yes - (in the context of - well you know I don't want to, but go on, do it anyway - like a challenge)...but yes, I think you are right, is how you feel and what the context. Maybe it's about whether there is a power imbalance as to whether it's a real choice or coercion.

OP posts:
chipmonkey · 29/03/2011 19:18

Well done, Ellie! You handled it really well!

wrt to the situation with your ex. You said no, he went ahead. That is rape, in my book.Sad

AliceWorld · 29/03/2011 21:39

Ellie, I'd suggest hanging round here to get a feel for the answer to your other question, if you want to explore it more. If a man makes it hard for you to say no because they will be angry, or sulk, or anything else like that, then they are being abusive. And if you are crying, they should stop. You should not have to have sex for the easy life. You do not have to 'give them what they want' - why would any man want to have sex with a woman who didn't want to have sex with him? Why would a man want to make the woman he loves have sex with him? Men are not animals with uncontrollable urges, and the view you mention that your friend gave reduces men down to this for me.

Original poster
EllieG · 29/03/2011 22:25

Hello CM Smile

Alice - yes, I suppose when you put it like that it's an incredibly disrespectful way of thinking about men isn't it? I think I will lurk round on the feminism threads to examine a bit more when it comes up.

OP posts:
sethstarkaddersmackerel · 30/03/2011 11:01

it's not that I actually want to go back to the age of chivalry. But I think we are kidding ourselves if we think we have moved on from hypocrisy - the 'treating the ladies with chivalrous respect in public while despising them in the gentleman's club' era may have largely passed but now we have 'liberal men claiming to be feminists while bullying or discriminating against women and reacting very angrily if challenged'; the left in the Assange case is one example. And many men who use porn and inflict it on women will tell you they support equal rights.
let us call it Misogynist Hypocrisy 2.0.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 30/03/2011 12:03

Ellie - sorry I meant to post yesterday, wanted to say I agree that having sex with an unwilling partner is rape IMO. That man knew you didn't want to have sex, but decided you were going to have it if he had to whine and sulk and pressurise and bully you into it. Would you do that? I bet you wouldn't. A decent man would (I should say, "decent men do") not want to initiate/continue with sex for a single milisecond if his partner was not enjoying it/wanted him to stop.

GrendelsMum · 30/03/2011 19:48

Just to say good for you, EllieG.

Original poster
EllieG · 30/03/2011 19:53

Yes Elephants you are right, my DH would be appalled if he thought I felt even remotely pressured. He says he cannot understand at all why some men use women in the sex industry, quite apart from the obvious wrong-ness, it's unfathomable why someone would want to have sex with someone who wasn't really making a positive and real choice to. And most good people think that way. It just seems, what with the whole bringing of the sex industry into 'normal' society that has happened over recent years, that more men see using women for sexual gratification as not so much of a problem (e.g. lap-dancing clubs being perfectly OK in some mainstream circles). I wonder if and how this reflects on attitudes towards rape and sexual aggression? It must do for some men.

OP posts:
Original poster
EllieG · 30/03/2011 19:53

Thanks grendelsmum Smile

OP posts:
Fresh2death · 30/03/2011 20:09

irrespective of gender, humans can be morons when drunk, his second response was more than likely due to the fact you annoyed him

StewieGriffinsMom · 30/03/2011 20:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Fresh2death · 30/03/2011 20:17

read it again and consult your brain

sethstarkaddersmackerel · 30/03/2011 20:20

'his second response was more than likely due to the fact you annoyed him'

er, I think it is fairly clear that this was a factor, yes Hmm

Fresh2death · 30/03/2011 20:21

*'his second response was more than likely due to the fact you annoyed him'

er, I think it is fairly clear that this was a factor, yes*

congratulations for restating the point then ...

StewieGriffinsMom · 30/03/2011 20:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Fresh2death · 30/03/2011 20:24

you dont need to understand my contribution other than it is an opinion/ contribution which by the posting of this situation has been requested by the OP ... Jog on

flippinada · 30/03/2011 20:24

"irrespective of gender, humans can be morons when drunk"

Indeed, fresh2death.

Some people, however, manage it without touching a drop of the hard stuff.

Fresh2death · 30/03/2011 20:27

haha touche! pleased to see there are some people with a symbol of intelligence