Dads and babies

[BlingLoving]

This is kind of a thread about a thread, so sorry about that.

I see a lot of threads commenting on the mother's right to make ultimate decisions for her DC, particularly when they're babies. Lots of comments about "you are his mother, you know best" or "mothers' instincts are the best source of decision making" (I'm paraphrasing obviously).

I am still waiting for DC1 to arrive, so am interested to see how I feel after that, but this doesn't seem fair to me. Clearly, in the very beginning of course I can see how that is naturally going to happen on the basis that the mother tends to be with baby 24/7 - especially if she's breastfeeding - plus she has all those hormones washing around from pregnancy and birth and so on.

But surely there comes a point, fairly early on, where, assuming that DH/DP is involved and engaged, his opinions and ability to look after his child are pretty much equal to the mother's?

I am getting clearer and clearer in my own head that feminism has to be a two way process - that for it to work, both men and women also have to stop seeing men as less competant at certain tasks and that both sexes have to step up and take on responsibilities that were traditionally allocated to one or the other. And this seems like an obvious addition to that thought process. What are other thoughts?

[BlingLoving]

For the record, i have no intention of bf or co-sleeping for "the early years" and will defend my right to choose not to do that.

[PenguinArmy]

That's fine Bling :), but you don't need to state that here. It's your business and you don't need to invite anyone else into your decision.

[SardineQueen]

This is such a tricky topic, I agree with lots of different posters even when what they are saying is not in total agreement!

Bling I agree with your post 19.43 as well. But then I also agree with people who say they see lots of men not wanting to step up, and women taking everything on. I agree that individual women need to expect more from their partners but also that society works in such a way to discourage women from doing that. I also would never deprive DH from time with children out of fear of him getting them if we split up. But I also understand the concerns about the legal system giving men more credit than women for the same amount of childcare. I also believe that when it comes to poor domestic situations the mother is usually the one who is blamed, even when they are not the only adult.

I don't know, it's all terribly complex.

I think that a multi-pronged approach is probably the only way - given how deeply entrenched this stuff is. Legislation + individuals modelling equal relationships + trying to gender stereotype less in daily life etc etc etc.

Sorry that's a bit of a ramble.

I suppose my point is that DH and I can do being equal til the cows come home, but that doesn't change anything, does it.

[madwomanintheattic]

sq - but it does. it brings up your children to see what childraising looks like, and they will in turn raise their own children in a similar manner. their friends who come round will say to their dad 'why don't you cook dinner like mr sq, daddy?' (hopefully in earshot of their mother). your dh will of course hare his equal child-rearing capacity in the same manner as suggested by mric above 'what do you mean, you've never bathed your baby?' and pass on handy tips to co-workers or friends with newborns.

in fact, there is an article in Brain, Child this week about just such peer pressure causing change for the good (as well as the bad) but i've left it in the house and can't get hold of it. i'll try and dig it up via the website.

there is every change that by modelling equal parenting, you can cause huge change.

[madwomanintheattic]

share, not hare...

[madwomanintheattic]

//www.brainchildmag.com/essays/spring2011_niesslein.asp

there you go.

[madwomanintheattic]

and chance, not change. i appear to have fetched up in the land of the typo, rendering everything i'm attempting to say utter garbage.

[HerBeX]

Actually I agree with Lenin.

Why is it women's job to make men take on their responsibilities?

It's not our job. It's their's. If you have to make someone do something they should be doing anyway, there's something wrong there.

[HerBeX]

It bloody irritates me to read over and over again, that it's women's fault that men behave badly because they should be making them behave well. FGS, is that another fucking job we have to do? I'm knackered, I can't take that on as well....

[AyeRobot]

Hear, hear HerBeX.

I'm really surprised how little crossover there is between this thread and the one in AIBU www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1180066-to-find-this-article-on-motherhood-inFURiating I don't tend to get involved in the child-centered threads on here as I don't yet have any, but I am interested in the dynamics of relationships and how feminism has an impact on them.

[nooka]

I read this one and then found that one and thought there was a huge amount of congruence between them. I don't think it is women's responsibility to make men do anything (too abstract apart from anything else) but I think we should all reflect on our own behaviour and the routines that our families have taken up and reflect on whether they are healthy, and if not what we can do about them. But then I take the perspective that the only behaviour I can change is my own, and that madwoman is right, change can and does happen one step at a time.

My own family set up with dh as SAHD, has an influence on not just us, but our children and both our friends and their friends. Just to show that there are other ways families can work. Just as when I was a young woman I was hugely influenced by working with a group of fabulous high achieving women, all of whom had older children - it certainly showed me that it was possible to enjoy both family and work and that although there were compromises it could all work out really well.

[MrIC]

"Actually I agree with Lenin.

Why is it women's job to make men take on their responsibilities?"

You're right - it's not. We (men) should just be doing these things. But at the same time, women need to give us the 'space' to exercise these responsibilities - which could mean everything from "right, I'm off to Pilates, then I might go for a drink with the other girls after. See you in a couple of hours or so. Don't forget DDs medicine when you feed her" to simply not criticising if we (men) do something wrong different to how you would with our children.

Even men with the best intentions will defer to/feel crowded out by their partners in the childcare arena: we may want to do more, but lack confidence, and being told we're doing it wrong instead of being given the time and space to work it out for ourselves will just discourage us. [sorry this does sound all "boo hoo, poor menz"].

I think there's a difference between making men take responsibility, and giving us (men) the opportunity to take responsibility.

[noodle69]

'Actually I agree with Lenin.

Why is it women's job to make men take on their responsibilities?'

Its not but I think its a mans job to prove to me he is good enough for me. If he isnt he wouldnt make the grade and I would move on. I also agree with Nooka on family models make you the way you are and will make the difference to whether you are the type of person to say to a man or not.

'which could mean everything from "right, I'm off to Pilates, then I might go for a drink with the other girls after. See you in a couple of hours or so. Don't forget DDs medicine when you feed her" to simply not criticising if we (men) do something wrong different to how you would with our children.

Exactly I also agree with this. The ones I know that complain about not having time to do anything and their husband/boyfriend gets to do stuff usually dont just say look I am doing it, end of. The men in their lives come home and say they are going out/having a lie in/going away for the weekend etc but they usually havent got the bottle to say it back. I know a few people that do this. I do it all the time to my husband stuff like Im going clubbing on Friday so can you look after LittleNoodle and I will let you have a lie on on Sunday etc'.

If he said no or complained about it then just say he cant go out anywhere and dont let him lie in. If he is reluctant he would soon come round to your way of thinking. Im lucky he never is but if I went out with some of my mates boyfriends they wouldnt know what had hit them and I wouldnt enable their behaviour in the way they do. Tbh though I just would never of gone out with these men in the first place. You wont get an equal, loving partner if you dont think you deserve one.

[Satireisbest]

BlingLoving.

I think your way is the way to equality.

Men of your generation want to be involved with their children,
We need women of your generation to want the parents to be equal.

I don't think people from different generations realise how much attitudes have changed since they had their children.


We raised our children equally and are reaping the rewards of the children having two main carers.

[noodle69]

'
I don't think people from different generations realise how much attitudes have changed since they had their children.'

I agree with this also I think the vast majority of men nowadays are willingly to help/get involved and do so nowadays. I am a lot younger than most on here and when I was at school none of the mums I knew were SAHMS unless they were single mums. The dads dropped off at school, looked after their kids, did stuff around the house. I saw both genders do the opposite role things etc. Its different if you are older as a lot of people grew up when things were much different for men and women.

[madwomanintheattic]

noodle - you have been very lucky.

but i think you may be falling into the same trap you are accusing older women of. you cannot make assumptions based on your own little corner of rl.

there are still an awful lot of very young mums who are not experiencing life as you see it.

[noodle69]

I dont think it is luck. I think its an informed thing through discussing in depth about kids, testing a man to see what he is like with kids/around kids, discussing everything before hand, how much he does for you before kids, proving that your worth it sort of thing.

If he does all that for a good few years and proves himself as a loyal husband that will do anything for you, then I think you can figure out what he would be like as a dad with no surprises.

[madwomanintheattic]

if it was an 'informed thing', simple as that, don't you think that woman in the paper wouldn't have fallen into the trap? the card-carrying t-shirt wearing fawcett society member?

i bet he spent a good few years sussing out the equal parenting potential of would-be husband.

naive in the extreme. sometimes rl and societal expectations get in the way of utopia.

[madwomanintheattic]

she, lol, not he.

[Satireisbest]

Noodle- you don't half get patronised on MN.
I think you're one of the wisest posters I've read.
You've made some common-sense decisions, and I think it really grates with some of the posters on here.

[noodle69]

Im not saying it doesnt exist but I think some women do enable it. It might be a different view to others but I strongly believe it. I have seen it in RL and I honestly dont understand why people put up with it. I think my arguments on the subject are borne out of frustrations when I do see it happen to people. Especially as it doesnt happen to everyone, and I believe it doesnt have to. I dont mean to offend or come across as cold hearted.

Less talk and more action if you really want to change things. You can talk about it till the cows come home but if you dont live it whats the point?

[noodle69]

If you dont put up with in the first place and if they do it make them do it as I said just go out and leave them do it etc. If they still carry on then leave them.
Dont be scared to do it. If everyone changed and didnt put up with it then it wouldnt happen as those men wouldnt have any wives/gfs and that would put a stop to it. It is achieveable and if everyone does it then it changes things. If everyone makes a stand against something and stands up to something then it wont happen (or will happen less frequently). I think it is entirely possible.