Dads and babies

[BlingLoving]

This is kind of a thread about a thread, so sorry about that.

I see a lot of threads commenting on the mother's right to make ultimate decisions for her DC, particularly when they're babies. Lots of comments about "you are his mother, you know best" or "mothers' instincts are the best source of decision making" (I'm paraphrasing obviously).

I am still waiting for DC1 to arrive, so am interested to see how I feel after that, but this doesn't seem fair to me. Clearly, in the very beginning of course I can see how that is naturally going to happen on the basis that the mother tends to be with baby 24/7 - especially if she's breastfeeding - plus she has all those hormones washing around from pregnancy and birth and so on.

But surely there comes a point, fairly early on, where, assuming that DH/DP is involved and engaged, his opinions and ability to look after his child are pretty much equal to the mother's?

I am getting clearer and clearer in my own head that feminism has to be a two way process - that for it to work, both men and women also have to stop seeing men as less competant at certain tasks and that both sexes have to step up and take on responsibilities that were traditionally allocated to one or the other. And this seems like an obvious addition to that thought process. What are other thoughts?

[MrIC]

"But even where he doesn't and is doing the day to day stuff, she is still doing the planning and thinking part of the work, which AFAIC is the most important part in a sense - one of the things whcih makes me v. angry is the concept of a man who says "tell me exactly what housework you want me to do and I'll do it" (in other words, it's not my job to think about it, but look what a good husband I am, I'm doing what yhou tell me, I deserve credit for this, give me a blow job...) The probelm with this, is that if women don't think about it and take that control about it, they fear it won't get done. So how can that be resolved?"

right, briefly, Herbex (because I've got to feed and then bathe DD, before cooking for DW and I - because I'm planning ahead) this state of affairs will continue until women stand up and say "why should I have to tell you? it's your responsibility as much as mine. you make a decision and then be prepared to live with the consequences and not bitch about it."

Look my whole point has been on this thread that you can't have it both ways. You can't have men do a fair share of the childcare/domestic work (which they should be doing) yet at the same time deny them equal decision making rights. Because it sounds like you just want us to be some kind of telepathic batman (in the military sense) anticipating and doing things precisely how our commanding officers partners want it done, when they want it done. That's probably a nice proposal for some, but I can't see it catching on!

[noodle69]

SQ that would definitely not happen with my group of friends! The men always offer to take the children whilst the women eat/drink and they take it in turns.

I am starting to be very glad of my social circle after reading this. I am often seen at bbqs, parties with the kids drinking with the girls whilst the dads do the childcare. It is often the my girlie group leave the men after the bbq, social gathering with the kids and go clubbing and we leave the dads in with the kids nearly every weekend.

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

So, noodle, where can the rest of us buy tickets to your world?!

[SardineQueen]

noddle but you do understand that these things do happen? And that there is therefore a need to discuss these things? Your social circle and way of doing things is not replicated in every household across teh UK, some people have quite different experiences?

MrIC I see your point but I think it has to stem from changes in maternity/paternity leave. While things are as they are, the default setting is some kind of weirdy 1950s idea. While many couples like noodle and her friends manage to even that up in their relationships, for many it's a step into an automatic old-fashioned way of being where the woman takes responsibility for everything as she is simply the one who is there. Not much point in handing lots of responsibility over to a person who isn't in the house to actually do anything IYSWIM.

[noodle69]

'Look my whole point has been on this thread that you can't have it both ways. You can't have men do a fair share of the childcare/domestic work (which they should be doing) yet at the same time deny them equal decision making rights.'

Agreed. I expect my husband to do as much as me with our daughter. I am lucky I married a man who is more than happy to do this and revels in it. I dont understand how people can say my decision goes cause I am the mum but then want a man to try and do things with the kids. No wonder they dont do it as they probably feel like if they got involved their efforts/opinions will be belittled.

[noodle69]

Yeah I do understand they happen SQ but it is not by far what all men or even most men do ime. I think as well sometimes a woman brings it on to herself. I know someone who is 6 months in to a relationship but already does all housework, cooks every night as well as full time work or study. She then constantly moans about it. If she is 6 months and she feels this way what will she be like in ten years. It is obvious to me when she has kids that it will get worse as she has started off like this.

I dont know why some women do it to themselves tbh. All of the ones that are in situations like this with kids were exactly the same pre kids when they were just living together. They are usually doormats who put up with all types of stuff already. I know someone who has to come in from drinking and pretend not to be drunk and get up in the morning and make him a fried breakfast! (they have no kids but she says she does it cause otherwise he will be moody wtf?) From an outsider it always seems obvious to me and I think why does she put up with it?

My husband definitely never had me doing that before kids that was for sure and he doesnt get it after kids! We discussed our expectations at length even as teenagers. I told him if you want a housewifey type dont marry me! That would be understatement of the year If he expected me to do everything after kids I would kick him out.

IC - It sounds like you have a lovely husband who is hands on already.

[HerBeX]

"Look my whole point has been on this thread that you can't have it both ways. You can't have men do a fair share of the childcare/domestic work (which they should be doing) yet at the same time deny them equal decision making rights."

But who is arguing for that?

As Engelhardt said eons ago, where equal parenting is appropriate, it's already happening.

[HerBeX]

Noodle69 when you ask yourself why women do it to themselves, do you also ask yourself why men do it to them?

Just a thought.

[SardineQueen]

noodle I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Do you think that there is a problem in society with different expectations on fathers and mothers, or not?

You seem to be saying that differing expectations are rare, and that the norm is that men and women take equal responsibility, but where relationships are uneven, it is the fault of the woman?

[PenguinArmy]

actually I've only read first and last pages so better read the inbetween for adding my comments

[noodle69]

I know women that do horrible things to men to. I think they are also mugs for putting up with it. Its obviously the fault of the man or woman who is taking the person for the ride, but the woman/man who puts up with it is also at fault for not leaving/putting their foot down. Some people are obviously selfish and losers but I dont have to be friends/relationships with them. You cant change them and its their loss at the end of the day.

I dont care about societal expectations. I care about my expectations and I wont put up with anything less. I wouldnt go into parenthood blind and just see how it goes. I would discuss in length what I will do and what I wont do before children, set the precedence before kids and make sure he knew if he took the piss in any area of our relationship I would be burning all his clothes on the front lawn

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

We love parallel arguing, PA!

[PenguinArmy]

I will say that I still do most of the thinking in our relationship, especially regards to DD.

This is despite me working and DH being a SAHD. Try as he might he seems to lack the empathy to be able to read her, so often when I get up (because I always get the lie in as I can't sleep early at night) I'll observe that she's tired and he'll be completely surprised about this fact.

When I was on mat leave and he was working, I did take the stance that over a lot of things I do best. However that came from experience as I was the one caring/battling with her during the day. If he got her really overtired, I would be the one to pay the price for that the next day. I did get him involved, he's always done the bedtime routine and put her to sleep. He trusts that I have the knowledge regarding BF and has never questioned anything I've said, just believed it from the get go.

What surprised me that mothers I met through NCT, was that all of them basically got/expected the mother to do everything because they were working. No helping with night wakings, going out and playing cricket all day sunday expecting mother and baby to tag along. I didn't realise how unusual our situation was.

anyway as usual these are random ramblings but I hope there are some coherent points in there

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

noodle to be fair, some men are control freaks and/or abusive and with the best will in the world, many women get sucked into these toxic relationships and end up in so deep, it's hard to get out. It's easy to say "she shouldn't put up with it" if you're an assertive type with a reasonable partner, but it's not always that simple.

A few people made the point upthread that there are men who would or do use "the childcare powerbase" (if you will) as another excuse to undermine their partner or control her in some way.

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

Interesting point about the "lack of empathy", PA, despite your DH being SAHD and therefore spending more time with your DD than you. Do you think that's specific to his and your situation, or do you think it's related to his being the father and you the mother more generally?

[PenguinArmy]

It's a tricky one. His family on the whole can't read people and I know I've always been better at it than most. I also think in society that females learn to read people better anyway, men can get away with just dominating a situation and therefore often don't need empathy, plus society encourages this 'masculine' behaviour. So a combination I think. Females often to have work quite subtlety and cleverly to get what they want.

[MrIC]

^""Look my whole point has been on this thread that you can't have it both ways. You can't have men do a fair share of the childcare/domestic work (which they should be doing) yet at the same time deny them equal decision making rights."

But who is arguing for that?

As Engelhardt said eons ago, where equal parenting is appropriate, it's already happening."^

Right, agreed but.....

"In other words, we need to make sure that men and women are equal and that the default psychological assumption isn't that men are the most important person in the household, before we hand over "power" (although as Dittany says, it's a moot point as to whether it's power) about childrearing to them."

I'm saying you if you wait for this, you'll be waiting forever (or at least another couple of generations) - you've got to hand over (some of) the control over childrearing now in order to get the ball rolling. You've got to give a bit to get a bit - it's not an all or nothing situation. You never going to get to a point where the lights flash and the man announces "ha ha! I have an epiphany! we're all equal! Now hand me my list of childcare responsibilities and I'll get the apron on." Change is going to be gradual, but we can start the ball rolling by putting equality in law - parental leave, etc.

So yes basically we agree (hurrah!) - the above was only to clarify why I was posting here in the first place. (as, in an unwritten rule of family mumsnet etiquette I usually try to avoid threads my wife is posting on).

right, back to the kitchen

[SardineQueen]

Interesting point IC and PA about socialisation, and that with the current situation we have women are socialised to being caring empathetic types and men to be in charge giving orders types.

Talking across society here and ignoring all of the many people and couples who buck this trend.

So is it any wonder that when a couple suddenly have a "caring" task in the form of a baby, it falls to the woman. So maybe women do have a "head start" on this stuff.

I mean my DH is lovely and very involved etc but he still doesn't do lots of things automatically that I would. eg he'll have the children all day and that's fine but he won't think to put a wash on. That type of stuff. That's all down to gender roles being so deeply ingrained that even the ones with their hearts in the right places take a long time to learn how to do it. While women have been raised to do it.

it's all a bit depressing.

[SardineQueen]

I think I've come full circle on this

[DuelingFanjo]

"My husband recently met a woman who was 30 and was pregnant and had never even changed a babies nappy! That women is going to have a much harder learning curve than men/boys who are used to having a hands on childcare role from much younge "

I got to 40 without ever changing a nappy and don't feel my learning curve was any steeper than other people.

DH can change nappies and do baths but he's not here for 8-9 hours a day. He can't feed our baby and it makes no sense for him to get up 3 times each night to sit with me while I feed if he has work at 8am in the morning. When I go back to work I will have done 10 months where the bulk of 'seeing to the baby' fell on my shoulders and although I want the parenting to be 50/50 eventually I am pretty sure it won't happen that way.

[noodle69]

engelbert - I currently work in an area of deprivation in a nursery and I have seen every boy play with dolls. I have worked in many other nurseries and the boys have played with dolls. Many have had their own dolls and brought them in as well as their own buggies, especially common if they had recently had a sibling. I dont think there is anything shocking about having a baby doll if your a boy in this day and age.

I do agree with sardinequeen about what you have grown up with. I never cooked, used a washing machine, iron, hoover etc until I was living with my husband and engaged so I dont see it as my role to be entirely responsible for those things as I didnt have to growing up. It is been extremely hard for me to learn how to do it all. Its by far the hardest thing I have ever done.

[BlingLoving]

I agree with MrIC. Men have to take responsibility and step up and as women we have to make them. It's all very well saying paternity rules have to change etc etc but that won't happen unless both sexes are agitating for that. And as long as mrn are slowed or discouraged from playing active roles in family life, they certainly wont agitate because either they will not care or will not want it.

I actually find it quite sad that women on here think that men just being shit at thinking and planning is just one of those things. That is men either being lazy and crap (worst case) or simply clueless and not able to see how pathetic it is.

And I will never refuse to allow dh "power" in our family life in order to ensure that if we split up he doesn't take the kids. Besides the cynicism of that view, it destroys everything I want to work for to make sure that eventually, in both home and work environments men and women have similar opportunities and responsibilities as needed.