Dads and babies

[BlingLoving]

This is kind of a thread about a thread, so sorry about that.

I see a lot of threads commenting on the mother's right to make ultimate decisions for her DC, particularly when they're babies. Lots of comments about "you are his mother, you know best" or "mothers' instincts are the best source of decision making" (I'm paraphrasing obviously).

I am still waiting for DC1 to arrive, so am interested to see how I feel after that, but this doesn't seem fair to me. Clearly, in the very beginning of course I can see how that is naturally going to happen on the basis that the mother tends to be with baby 24/7 - especially if she's breastfeeding - plus she has all those hormones washing around from pregnancy and birth and so on.

But surely there comes a point, fairly early on, where, assuming that DH/DP is involved and engaged, his opinions and ability to look after his child are pretty much equal to the mother's?

I am getting clearer and clearer in my own head that feminism has to be a two way process - that for it to work, both men and women also have to stop seeing men as less competant at certain tasks and that both sexes have to step up and take on responsibilities that were traditionally allocated to one or the other. And this seems like an obvious addition to that thought process. What are other thoughts?

[DuelingFanjo]

Sadly I think because of a) biology and b) the way maternity is, men don't get that they have equal ability and responsibility to care for their children.

In my experience, as a first time mum, my DH thinks he is doing his bit if he has the baby for an hour. I can't wait until I am back in work/the baby is weaned and he realises that parenting is 50/50 not 95/5!

[HerBeX]

LOL at storming the phallic palace, that sounds like it might be fun.

MrIC I don't really know what you're arguing - for fathers to have parenting rights/ responsibilities? They already do. As Engelbert said last night, where they do their fair share of parenting, that usually gets reflected in care and control decisions on any breakdown of a relationship. In fact, there have been cases of men being awarded custody of children in some American states, where women have made the strategic error of working full time even where the men have also worked full time and even where she did the lions share of the child care, because of course that work is invisible when women do it but has rings and bells on it when men do it and so the men have been judged to be doing more caring. Pretty much the same phenomenon you get when women in a mixed group do 34% of the talking or whatever it is and are judged to have done 70-80% because men are supposed to be the ones who talk and therefore when women do it it gets noticed and over-estimated and when men do it it gets unnoticed and under-estimated because it's just normal, the way things are - it's exactly the same situation wit childcare and that massive perception gap has got to be tackeled if even stronger parental rights for men are not to be simply another stick to beat women with. Otherwise, instead of it breaking a link, it ends up re-inforcing the chain.

But I aboslutely agree that there have got to be more paternity rights, I wouldn't argue against that at all.

It is a bit of a chicken and egg situation isn't it.

[MrIC]

I think my point, clumsily expressed, was that in order to change the order of things - that a woman who speaks her mind is a loudmouth, while a man is just assertive; that a man who does a fair share of childcare is "an engaged dad", while a woman who does the same is "just a mum" - we need to get to this point:

Bloke A to Bloke B: "what do you mean 'you've never given your daughter a bath?' What kind of man are you?"

i.e. the best way (sadly) to change men's minds is through other men [the message should be equally valid coming from a woman, but let's work with reality for the moment....]

It needs to become not just socially accepted, but socially obligatory, for men to play an equal role in childcare. It needs to become a point of competition among men ("Oh yeah? well I managed to cook a casserole for my DW while she took a well earned nap AND rock DD's pram with my other hand!") to really ingrain the idea of men as equal care givers into society, and thus change both the way men and women are judged in this context.

Therefore, to make us (men) take that responsibility, women will have to relinquish some of their control over childcare.

Did I explain it any better this time?

[noodle69]

My husband got up for every feed when our daughter was born (I didnt breastfeed). We got up for every feed together because we loved her so much we didnt want one of us to miss out (cheesy but its how you will feel once your babies here) He took 4 months off when our daughter was born and it came naturally to him straight away.

We all coslept together and he has done as much of the childcare as me. I am totally happy to leave him with our daughter if I go for weekends away. The kind of people that you often read on this site are more career types and motherhood/fatherhood hasnt always been an all consuming urge for them all their lives so it makes it more of a difficult transition to become a mum or dad.

If you are used to being around babies/kids then men can be just as good as women at childcare. My husband recently met a woman who was 30 and was pregnant and had never even changed a babies nappy! That women is going to have a much harder learning curve than men/boys who are used to having a hands on childcare role from much younger.

[BeehiveBaby]

DH and are pretty much equal here, in terms of childcare and decision making but perhaps not logistics/ planning. I find it very freeing!

[noodle69]

'I find that sort of thing bizarre, hobbit. I've not heard anyone say it, personally, but this area seems to be very heavy with childcare being shared out. It's the norm to see dads, grannies and grand-dads dropping off at nursery and hanging out at toddler groups. I understand that this is unusual.'

Also I wouldnt say it is unusual. I have worked in nurseries for quite a few years and it is mainly dads that drop off in my current one. I think it past nurseries it is about 50/50. I would say that was normal for this day and age.

[noodle69]

'IME quite a lot of men are quite cheerful to be excluded from childcare. Men openly saying they stay late at the office so that they miss the frantic bit and just roll in for the nice bit of bedtime, that sort of thing.'

This only happens with career type men. Same as career type women who dont need to work but do because they get frustrated at home and need to get out of the home. Those types of people both men and women are not particularly maternal/paternal and thats why they struggle more. I think it should be more acceptable in society to say that they dont want children rather than them going along with it as its the done thing.

That is certainly not what most men I know do. Most I know look after their kids, do loads of childcare, drop off to nursery and are very hands on and visible both at my nursery and out and about in the day.

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

To be fair, noodle, I think a lot of career-orientated people also want children. And I think a lot of people aren't clued up about parenting because that's the way our society is set up, not because they aren't "parental" per se.

I had never changed a nappy before I had DD at the age of 39. But I learned very quickly and don't feel I've struggled particularly, despite a lack of "practice". In the past I was what you describe as a "career-type woman", but I don't feel that's hampered my ability to move into motherhood.

I think it is entirely acceptable nowadays for a couple not to want children. I know several who have chosen to remain childless and they don't seem to get any stick about that.

[SardineQueen]

It must be happening somewhere, noodle, otherwise what it the point of this thread? It may be that your experience and my experience are not the exact experience of all women with children in the UK.

Interested in your assertion that it's only career type men who are happy to be "excluded" from childcare. I know plenty of people (men and women) who will dodge out of childcare tasks if they can get away with it - they're not all career type people - it's human nature surely!

[SardineQueen]

Oh I only just saw that thing about people who want to work obviously being incompatible with having children.

Children aren't small forever though, many people come into it when the children get older. I don't think finding babies and small children frustrating should be a taboo TBH, and I certainly don't agree with the view that people who find small children hard work shouldn't be having children.

[HerBeX]

Yes you did explain it better this time MrIC but I have another problem with this:

"Therefore, to make us (men) take that responsibility, women will have to relinquish some of their control over childcare."

One of the problems with that, is that women fear if they do that, their babies will die.



Not a totally flippant comment btw. There is some kind of very strange process whihc lots of couples go through when the first baby comes along, where the mother takes control because she is BF and she has carried and born the baby and the dad steps back, largely because he has to go back to work so soon. But even where he doesn't and is doing the day to day stuff, she is still doing the planning and thinking part of the work, which AFAIC is the most important part in a sense - one of the things whcih makes me v. angry is the concept of a man who says "tell me exactly what housework you want me to do and I'll do it" (in other words, it's not my job to think about it, but look what a good husband I am, I'm doing what yhou tell me, I deserve credit for this, give me a blow job...) The probelm with this, is that if women don't think about it and take that control about it, they fear it won't get done. So how can that be resolved?

[noodle69]

Sardinequeen - No I dont know anyone that would stay late in order to get out of childcare. Surely they want to see their kids?

I am lucky I live in an area that it is just as normal to see men out with their kids frequently (comes from being in an area where work isnt always of normal standard hours).

I work and have kids but I would never stay at work in order to get out of doing stuff with them mundane or not. I know my husband defnitely would take a very dim view on someone who did that to. Its not something I have encountered in RL, but you are right it could be my area.

Immaculdaconception - I think if a man is used to changing nappies, lots of hands on childcare etc before having kids, used to looking after kids on their own for prolonged periods of time/overnight then obviously its not going to be as steep a learning curve when they have their own child. Its not as clear cut as men struggle more because they are men and women just instinctively know what to do imo

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

I agree with that, noodle. I think very little of modern mothering is "instinctive" - very little of modern "parenting", in fact. You would think that keeping a baby warm (but not too warm), fed, clean and loved would be fairly basic, but I think there are a lot of health professionals and people from social services who would tell you it's shocking how many people - including mothers - don't even have those instincts...

[SardineQueen]

"Its not as clear cut as men struggle more because they are men and women just instinctively know what to do imo"

Has IC said that? I didn't see that in her post.

On getting out of childcare, most people I know are happy for someone else to take over sothey can slope off, I thought that was quite normal!

[noodle69]

That is why I cant stand it when people who hold the view he is a man he wont be as good a parent, wont be as hands on etc.

My husband was 23 when our daughter was born. There isnt anything I wouldnt trust him to do as well, and in some areas better (and my job is working with children). He is used to children and he found the trannsition to parenting easier than some mums I know.

[HerBeX]

"Surely they want to see their kids?"

Yes of course they do, but they want to see them when their nappies have been changed, they've eaten and played and are ready to listen calmly to a story and snuggle down all nice and cosy with no tantrums and no problems.

In other words, they want to see them without doing the work required to make them acceptable company.

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

Ha ha ha, funnily enough SQ, DH and I had a disagreement only last night because he said he felt he wasn't doing enough and offered to "do" DD's breakfast a few days a weeks and let me lie-in, whereas I was a bit defensive because while I'm more than happy for him to do all manner of childcare, getting DD up and "doing" her breakfast is one of my favourite bits...
I think, like noodle and her DH, we agreed we would both do breakfast if we so wished, as DH also enjoys that first contact with DD upon waking up...

[SardineQueen]

I just find it surprising that someone is saying "men aren't naturally crap with children"as if in argument against posts saying that, when I don't think that has been suggested on the thread - in this topic it doesn't really happen that people say that one sex or the other is better/worse at a task because of their sex - I mean that's anathema to the whole topic surely!

[noodle69]

Sorry just read your comment Sardine Queen - No sorry didnt mean IC said that. I meant that as a general comment. I think it is societys view that men will struggle more so their opinions might not be as valid. I dont believe that though it comes down to experience with children, the parents personalities, patience levels, stresses on that particular day etc.

I know I as a mother I dont always know best. I maybe do sometimes but I dont exactly know everything instinctively and thats comes from being a mum, having a degree in Childhood Studies and a background in working with children for a few years. I still dont always know everything and I dont think anyone does. That is why I value my husbands opinion as much as my own.

There are subjects that it is useful to have opinions on from other sources such as the father because they make you look at things in a different way.

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

Very true SQ - it's about who should have the right to make decisions, whether a mother should have the ultimate say or not....

[SardineQueen]

I have been to BBQs where the men have all stood around drinking lager and the women have all chased after the children. Where the men have sat and relaxed in the sun with their food and the women have had theirs go cold as they try to juggle multiple toddlers and babies. It does happen.

In our relationship it's more likely to be the other way around but that's us! I don't think I've ever been to a BBQ where the women all sat around boozing and smoking and the majority of men stuck to apple juice and let their food get cold...

This stuff does happen. Or am I in a parallel universe?

[noodle69]

I agree with IC my husband often want to both do it. We both bathe my daughter together, sleep with her often at night and do the story. When he is not at work we both do the bedtime routine together and all get in the bed to ready the story but we are proabably a bit cheesy as my daughter is 3!


We decided on how many children we wanted and their names when we were 18 though so I think we have been broody all our lives!