Feminist critique of "Freedom" by Jonathan Franzen?

[Greythorne]

At what point does a novel populated with selfish misogynistic characters stop being insightful and turn into misogynism?

Just wondering.

Haha. You are so right.

This book did not leave me feeling sorry for these poor men doomed to their masculine existences.

Just because one character predicts another is going to get a blowjob from his hot young assistant DOES NOT make it clever or ok to have it actually happen.

i am disappointed by it.

I loved The Corrections. But this.....just an endless series of flawed men who use and abuse the women in their lives who are helpfully on (a) anti depressants [Connie, Patty], (b) gold digging sluts [Jenna], (c) nubile, impressionable sexpots (Lalitha)

The men are just awful and the "honesty" of their misogynism is horrible. Just because a character is honest about wanting to put his dick in his best friend's wife's vagina or best friend's sister does not make it funny or searing. Just annoying.

Don't forget the hushed up date rape. And the horrible aggressive attitude to the groupies / schoolgirl fans.

Mind you I did learn that wanting to have kids should be made to seem 'uncool' which is an interesting approach to population control. Oh and cats are evil.

A very bitter book.

I haven't read it, but was urged by everyone to read the corrections and flicked through to find similar sounding stuff to what the OP is talking about.

Can it become part of my new book genre "Travels With My Cock" which basically involve one or more jaded middle aged (or older) male central characters narrating their lives chiefly focussing on places they have put their penises?

Well, The Corrections, IMO, was quite different as , yes, there were pretty unlikeable characters with some unfortunate traits, but the characters were all well rounded, men and women alike. Edith and Denise were both fully developed characters in that novel.

(And, yes, Dittany, you are perfectly right; Franzen did not want The Corrections to be on oprah's book circle because he did not want the little people encouraged to read it.)

But here, in Freedom, the men are all foul, sexist, sex-obsessed idiots. and the women are all mute. even when Patty tells her tale, she decides to tell it in the third person, for some unexplained reason, so we never get to understand her the way we do the menfolk.

oh, oh, oh! Forgot to mention, the absolute and repeated disgust expressed by both male (Joey) and female (Jenna) characters about menstruation!

Really? I love menstruation, me. It's part of the whole 'having reached puberty' thing that makes me of an age to actually have sexual relationships. I do wonder about men who can't cope with it.

that Bidisha article was brilliant dittany.

Agree wholeheartedly Sakura! Just want to send Bidisha's article to the weasly little guy at work who thinks he is such a stud, comments on the legs/breasts/faces etc etc of every woman that walks past,then writes speeches for his boss on the subject of the rights of women etc.He is 30 and lives at home, 'Because ma wee maw takes care of me.' Earns a packet, drinks like several fishes but cannot work out why women don't throw themselves at him. Methinks his cock goes nowhere!! The other day an intern from the US told him she considers him repulsive. He didn't report her, 'Because she has nice tits.' Sorry, just venting.

He didn't report her because it'd be offical that he was repulsive.

Yes, I presume he didn't fancy defending the theory that he was not repulsive at a tribunal.

Elephants - Travels with my Cock - genius.

Yes, this book is horrific. I asked DP after he had read it what he thought of Lalitha as a character. "Tragic middle-aged man's wank fantasy." (This is the judgement of a non-tragic arguably middle-aged man.) I thought at first that she was going to turn out to be evil or something because playing such a lame character so straight - in much admired literary fiction - seemed unbelievable. I mean she is like Warren's girlfriend-bot in Buffy.

It's really, really hatey, isn't it?

Trying to read another book atm - Mr Peanut - billed as very clever and original - well actually I have abandoned it as I was afraid it was literally triggering depression. It's all about how women are dysfunctional, poor old men have to be married to them and are pretty much forced to abuse or kill them. One of the wives is "grotesquely" fat unless she is on a strict diet, which makes her crazy. The noble husband prefers her fat to crazy and wishes she wouldn't diet. Another one takes to her bed permanently, just to be annoying or something, and gets raped in her sleep every night. I mean what is the point of all this hatey shit?

I'm a bit surprised by this response to Freedom actually. I didn't look at this thread til I'd finished it as I knew there'd be spoilers but I was interested in a feminist reading because I thought it was very complex. In particular I thought the rape was handled well - the parents coming out with all the rape myths were so self-serving and it was clear that Patty was deeply scarred by it.

Even just the fact of the central character being a woman. The men are pretty much useless, the women stronger and better able to cope with fate.

Like I say I'm not fully convinced it's all good news but I think it's a lot more complex than 99% of what's being published at the moment and it bears a more detailed reading I think.

Maybe it would work for Book Club? Big old book though...