Boycotting countries were women do not have equality in law

[upsydaisysexstylist]

Why don't we?. Why was there no stigma attached to holidaying in Eygpt, am channelling my DP's father here who wouldn't visit Spain until Franco died. Please note I am not equating racism and sexism, but am old enough to remember aparthied in South Africa and the many boycotts of South African goods. It was unacceptable to support that regime then, why is there no similar outcry about dealing with countries where women are not equal before the law.

I know there is very little awareness of which countries require that women have legal guardians and I have no idea how you avoid buying oil and it's many products from specific countries. But again the but i am deeply deeply disturbed and angry that this is tolerated and tacitly condoned. I honestly don't know what the answer is and am hoping someone somewhere is already doing something that I just don't know about it.

ayerobot i dont think anyone could possibly disagree with your statement, improving conditions for women accross the world, access to education and employment, safety from being harassed etc is paramount to any civilised society, women are the foundation of the society.

i think i took offense a bit at the fact the op felt that women having a legal guardian was oppressive to them, whereas a lot of women actually feel the oppossite.

butturbur, that is exactly what im talking about, a position being forced upon a people, slaves were forced to be slaves, and they didnt want to be slaves that is obvious.

now how many women from the middle east dont want to have a legal guardian?
no slave would choose to be a slave in a place where they dont have to, so why would women in the west still choose to follow the wali system when it comes to things such as marriage and so on?

to force someone not to have a legal guardian when they want one is not feminism, or freedom from oppression.

I wasn't saying racism and sexism should not be equally unacceptable, just they are different and I do not have direct experience of racism to judge.
Nalaik, I deliberately stated equality in law, because there then exists the possiblity of justice. I think it takes a lot more than laws to change the status of women within a society but where else would you start.

I don't feel I was very articulate with my OP what I am angry about is the lack of publicity, and engagement with the issue in the west. Alright The person I most resembled in my teens was Lisa Simpson, and I was probably more aware of political campains than I am now, but ( and I want to stamp my feet here) why is this acceptable.

Lastly before this becomes a mammoth post I am not sure capitalism cares about anyone who doesn't own the means of production, we are workers and consumers who must be manipulated into wanting things

X post with Nalaik, But what happen's if you don't want a legal guasrdian or they are mistreating you, how is that resolved ? To me not being able to do things like open a bank account as an adult because of your sex is oppressive,

i would agree that no system inplace is infalliable and their needs to be provisions in law to make sure that guardians dont abuse their powers and women are able to change their guardians,
i also think their needs to be some understanding of what a guardian is and what his responsibilities are towards a woman.

There are many organisations and charities that do deal with the issues, and try and raise awareness and try to bring change through enabling women to be independant and highlighting abuses against women.
the thing is, being we are talking about arab countries, these organisations tend to be muslim organisations and non muslims are understandably cautious about supporting them.

a good place to start would be with yvonne ridley and lauren booth, maybe check out jfac.org

Why would a woman reject her adult status in the eyes of the law, and choose to take on the role of a child?

I cannot believe that any woman would choose this if she had not been culturally conditioned into believing she is less capable than a man.

Any woman who does so belittles all women.

This is a great post, a great question. Really well worth bringing up.

Of course lots of women want guardians, when the effect of not having a guardian, would be to be made even more vulnerable and unsafe than with one.

Just like in the west, of course we conform to certain patriarchal norms and internalise them and justify them, to make our lives bearable.

culturally conditioned huh? so basically you are saying you cant accept anyone who decides to live differently from you and if they do so they must have been brainwashed? lol

patronising or what?

please tell me what do you think of women who wear hijab? have they been culturally conditioned? including yvonne ridley and lauren booth?

it could easily be argued that you are culturally conditioned which is why you have the opinion you do#!!

Guardianship in theory means no women would ever be forced against their wishes and have to leave their kids to be looked after by others, how many mnetters say they dont have a choice about going to work? guardianship gives them that choice.
in theory their would be no widows or divorcees forced to beg or prostitute themselves etc,

but like i said the systems in place are not infaillable, (i cnt sp i know), likewise the system we have has its flaws.

"i find this a bit weird? i think you would have to first do research and see if the majority of women, not the most vocal or just the most educated, or those able to speak english, but the majority ow women across social backgrounds in that country dont want to have a legal male guardian, or if they prefer to actually have the security of a male guardian due to cultural and religious differences. its a bit patronising to those women that you feel angry about it. it is a bit like people who feel angry that women wear niqaab or hijab and feel like its an opression on the women and making them inequal whereas the women who actually wear it, the majority opt to wear it and want to wear it...."

This sort of sentiment makes me despair. And no, you wouldn't have to start with the US. Hello Sakura

It's a huge problem for feminists. Vocal campaigning feminism is dominated by the more left-wing: left-wing people are generally more likely to see racism or be unwilling to judge other countries and, yes cultures. But "other cultures" are very often deeply anti-feminist. Because culture and race become conflated, great contortions need to be achieved to avoid judgments that could appear racists. A lot of feminists don't seem to want to talk about it, including on here.

i agree with you a lot of cultures are racist inherently, and that is why you need to look at the logic and reasoning behind their practices before just dismissing them, it is a lot more effective to try and look at the reasoning behind guardianship and how in theory it could be used to help women and then campaign for laws to be put in to place to make it easier for women to change guardians, or limiting the powers of guardians, then it would be to try and outlaw guardianship. It woyld be much more effective to campaign to guardians reminding them of their responsibilities from a pov which is consistent with their values abd beliefs rather then come across as butterbur condemning anything and anyone which doesnt believe in the way that you think people should live.

and also campaign from the same pov reminding women of their rights over their guardians.

obviously in order to do so you would have to try and understand the culture which none of you seem interested in.

oh bollocks naila feminists in those cultures also disagree with the infantilisation of women.

Why don't men need guardians?

To a point -- but often the condoning of sexism within another culture comes from ignorance and failure to understand. It might seem contrary: but there is no reason why insight and understanding cannot be accompanied by horror and disgust.

Also I don't really know why you are talking about imposing our political systems on other cultures naila.

If you know anything about feminist discussion, you'll know we want to tear our shitty patriarchal systems down, not export them to other people.

I think you'll find there are plenty of patriarchal systems that don't need any help from ours at all.

The question is, to judge or not to judge. And if to judge, then to campaign or not to campaign.

TheBossOfMe has good thoughts on this. She works with women in Thailand, or did last year anyway.

"what I am angry about is the lack of publicity, and engagement with the issue in the west. Alright The person I most resembled in my teens was Lisa Simpson, and I was probably more aware of political campains than I am now, but ( and I want to stamp my feet here) why is this acceptable."

Well worth saying. But everyone knows why, it is very simple. No one wants to seem bigoted. Most people are genuinely torn. But you have absolutely pinpointed it: a tug of war between racism and sexism.

One other thread that skirted around this issue brought up the book which I can't remember the title of: made into a film. About racism in southern America where a black man is acquitted of rape. The poster said it demonstrated how racism always trumped sexism.

To kill a mockingbird

I don't condemn the way other people want to live, Nailak if it's a free choice. I would defend any woman's right to choose to wear the hijab, or any other clothing, and to follow other religious rules as they choose.

However, I feel that religion (and not just Islam, Christianity and Judaism have an equally blemished record), is the last refuge for all kinds of intolerance and bigotry. Racism, anti feminism and homophobia have all been supported in the name of religion. I think this needs to be challenged.

Yes the book was presented as a powerful, progressive piece - which of course, it was, in the context of racism.

But it was steeped in rape myths which went unnoticed and unchallenged.

exactly so thanks Herbex

herbex you say bollox and it is easily said but what is your evidence? i mean i can easily say the same as you with no eveidence!! lol but it doesnt mean much really?

and i dont know much about the femenist cause, which is why i thought i could offer a different perspective.

I wouldn't defend the right to wear a burkha, not in the current global context. I think it's a bit like wearing a swastika. The origin of Islam is much more liberal, feminist and progressive than most people imagine (I'm sure a lot on this thread know this though). The burkha is a symbol of the way it's been corrupted to oppress, damage, mutilate and murder women.

Is that going to get deleted? It probably is, isn't it. Sorry if I've offended. Maybe a swastika is going too far. But symbolises oppression and I don't understand why any educated woman would support its wearing.

have you tried asking them and tried to understand their point of view?

or do you just think what is best for you must be best for everybody?

do you think it is due to your cultural conditioning that you cant accept burka? in the area i live in london it is a common site, noone even thinks twice about it.

and as for what you said about the origins of islam that is what im talking about, cultures are sexist, so if we look in to the faith of the people we are discussing and see the reasons why they have certain rulees and try to campaign that these rules are implemented properly according to the ethos of their faith and beliefs is more effective then saying you shouldnt belive that it is wrong.

tbh i dont understand how wearing a burka is like wearing a swastika? are you saying anything that represents islam should be hidden coz it is equated to terrorism or something? i am not sure, i am not offended, just dont understand.

naila tbh your different perspective is the normal, orthodox one that we see in real life every day.

It's not as if we haven't come across your arguments before. Your views are normal.

If you want evidence that arab feminists are just as likely to agree with western ones on the way religion and culture are used by the patriarchy to oppress women, here's an article you might find interesting. Happy reading!

Wajiha Al-Huweidar