If men gave birth, would elective c-section be considered ok?

[tinierclanger]

And other birth/pregnancy/labour issues... Anyone want to discuss?

"taken in the round, a c-s is very definitely not an easy or pain-free experience"

It's statements like this. That statement is not true for my personal experience. The "very definitely" is incorrect. Better to replace it with an "often" or something softer. Childbirth brings out such terribly dogmatic positions.

I do think that the medicalisation of birth swung too far and that women had a terrible time, and we still have the hangover of that. People like the NCT are working to change things though. I think there is room for balance, I don't like absolutism in these things.

It is not for anyone to say whether for any one individual woman, a vaginal birth or a CS will be easier or have a more straightforward recovery. It is also not for anyone to say whether someone elses experiences are valid or not.

erm, my generalisation bit was in the phrase 'taken in the round' - you see i think c/s is too often presented as an 'easy' choice in a negative way IYSWIM.

i totally agree with your last para too.

I do think it's a shame that it all has to get so shouty on this subject.

Difficulty is there's not a crystal ball as to which birth will be better for which woman. I guess that's why

I just think that in this day and age, we should have got this birth thing sussed, TBH. I also think it's a shame that those who strongly advocate for one way or another can sometimes be really quite nasty to the "other" bunch.

Not shouty on this thread I mean, but on MN in general it can get pretty awful.

well, 'this day and age' is probably going to be looked back on as a time of barbarism at some point...

research into proper pain relief is still fairly fledgeling in historical terms. as pain relief is usful for both men and women - I'm not sure the lack of realy good knowledge advances in this field is a specifically feminist issue (as I'm sure we all know men who have received inadequate/ inappropriate treatment for pain too). It may simply be todays science isn't that great really.

You're right there - it is too easy to get sucked in by personal experience and away from a rational discussion of the issues.

aware of own personal bias on this<

the current 'AIBU to want an ELCS' thread beng a case in point.

Pain relief is very interesting.

They have discovered that certain forms of pain relief have a greater effect on men than on women - common types of pain relief (but can't remember which ). In that when men take these drugs their brains go "righty-ho" and switch off the pain, whereas women's don't do it as much (or however it works but you get my drift).

When they did the trials for these drugs way back when who did they test them on? Men of course. So it turns out that the dosages that have been used for years and years have been inappropriate/not so effective for women. And you can imagine that some people prescribing and being told the treatment is ineffective will put the woman complaining in the "phantom pain / exaggerating / drama queen" box.

It is also the case that children are often under-medicated for pain, for various complicated reasons.

I do wonder though - does the "establishment" take pain reported by men seriously, while pain reported by women is more likely to be dismissed/undertreated?

Women and children, in fact. Is there a feeling that women and children are quite weak, so if they are saying they are in pain it's probably not really that bad, so let's not use powerful drugs on them they should put up and shut up.

While is a big strong man says he's hurt then he really must be hurt and it's all very serious.

Possibly?

That idea shows up the double standard very well, reminds me of the book Dittany recommended.

If women and children are weaker and more likely to feel pain for minor ailments (which isn't true but stay with me), then logically they should be given more sympathy and assistance when they complain of pain. Instead the answer is to tell them to get on with it.

Same as how women are weaker and so can't manage to do well paid work (victorian idea) but strangely are highly suitable for doing all of the heavy, boring, never-ending drudgery.

A lot of the views in the medical establishment are still stuck in the received wisdom of the victorian era, I reckon. It's slow to change.