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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If men gave birth, would elective c-section be considered ok?

60 replies

tinierclanger · 01/03/2011 19:56

And other birth/pregnancy/labour issues... Anyone want to discuss?

OP posts:
HerBeX · 02/03/2011 22:30
Grin
MatureUniStudent · 03/03/2011 07:15

Alice - with the birth of my first child, I had internals for no reason, was told to lie back and be silent - was not allowed to move around etc. It is MUCH better now for women and just as it should be. (well in this country) I am not saying there is no need for active feminism to ensure we keep pushing for our equal rights but my goodness, just 30 years ago the attitutdes towards women were dreadful.

So whilst I accept you think you are living it in terms of inequality (or whatever - you would need to specify your concerns) I thank my lucky stars my girls were born now and not when I was born, because it is so much better now and their prosepects are much much brighter.

And for those who cannot see that some posts were unequal in their treatment and respect towards men, take your rose tinted one way of looking at it glasses off, and re read. How can you expect respect and fairness, if you don't display it to others?

AliceWorld · 03/03/2011 08:19

I am extremely grateful to the work of past feminists to advance rights for women in all areas. Yes they made significant changes. And I show this by carrying on the fight, not just sitting back and thinking everything is done. We have had feminists from back in the day on this board express how heartened they are this is happening, and I have come across this in real life many times too.

I don't need to express my 'concerns or whatever' here. This thread is about a specific issue. There's a whole board exploring the current issues far more broadly and comprehensively that I can do here.

MatureUniStudent · 03/03/2011 09:05

Oh Alice, I am sorry I have made you feel defensive. I have now dipped into the board but if I am to try to discuss things, to understand something that I always promoted and pushed for, without realising it had a name "feminism", then you cannot cut me off because I haven't posted in the correct place.

SardineQueen · 03/03/2011 12:26

salt I started my conversation with DH with the question "if you could get pregnant and have a baby and that meant we could have another baby now would you want to do that?" and his answer was yes Grin

So my poll of one on the giving birth bit is based on the (possibly unusual) situation of a man who is up for it Grin

He was there for my horrendous first labour and both my csections as well. Although obviously not experiencing them himself.

So my poll of one is of a man who was thinking about it "properly" rather than being stunned IYSWIM. Still the answer was "whatever the doctors think".

It is an impossible question I suppose... But then more impossible than a woman pregnant for the first time in our society where people don't generally witness births? I certainly didn't have a clue what I was doing!

MaMattoo · 03/03/2011 12:37

From the more Ha-Ha perspective then.

  • The term 'too posh to push' wont be used as much as it is...
  • post c-sec physio will be available on the NHS
  • c sec overhang and the size of it shall be a matter of pride and discussion
  • VBAC will become extinct..
sakura · 03/03/2011 13:45

IF men gave birth they've wouldn't have burned all the midwives in medieval times, pretending they were witches.
I'm still sad about the fact that birth has now been coopted by men, when it was originally a female domain. And the U.S has a shockingly high maternal mortality rate, related to the fact that one third of women there give birth by c-section.

SardineQueen · 03/03/2011 14:52

sakura I thought that the high maternal death rate in the US was related to the different standards of case between those who have lots of medical insurance, and the vast numbers of women who have none.

SardineQueen · 03/03/2011 14:54

care not case

I was under the impression that people with no medical insurance and illegal immigrants and people like that were getting by with no or little access to ante-natal care (which increases maternal mortality) and also in some cases with little access to care when they were actually giving birth?

amiheartless · 03/03/2011 14:55

they would be having elective caeareans 3 weeks in lol
have some medical way of maikng someelse carry it for them.

controlpantsandgladrags · 03/03/2011 15:03

If men had to have babies the human race would have died out many generations ago I think.

controlpantsandgladrags · 03/03/2011 15:04

Obviously I can't speak for all men, but if you saw the fuss my DH can make when he gets a measley paper cut, you'd see where i was coming from.

EdgarAleNPie · 03/03/2011 15:10

erm, perhaps people would have homebirths where appropriate instad of believeing they couldn't do it because 'the man' told them they couldn't?

rather than increase the risk they rip their winkies in hospital?

on a funnier note: my next doors husband was admitted with suspected kidney stones. He was in agony. The consultant refused pain relief saying they needed the pain to tell them what was happening. Cue 8 hours waiting for test results to come back, unattended and in pain before discharge without a clear diagnosis. His wife had to smile a bit,as when she was in labour he was an abject tool who complained his phone batteries had run out, and told her she was wimping!.

SardineQueen · 03/03/2011 15:16

I don't really understand when partners are unsympathetic about labour and birth TBH. That seems very strange to me.

When I was having my awful attempt at labour with DD1 DH was white as a sheet and panic stricken. Not particularly helpful, I grant you Grin but I can't imagine him thinking I was making a fuss about nothing etc that you read on here quite often.

SardineQueen · 03/03/2011 15:17

I mean I can't imagine any people I know well making light of a person saying they are in pain in any reasonable circs TBH (eg labour, broken leg, pretty bleeding obviously painful things). What's the psychology?

EdgarAleNPie · 03/03/2011 15:21

fear. they are afraid of what's going on, and therefore pretend its funny/ not seriously happening.

EdgarAleNPie · 03/03/2011 15:21

i like to joke when i am in pain for that reason.

SardineQueen · 03/03/2011 15:32

You think? I'm sure that is the case some of the time. Sometimes it seems that in long labours the partners have genuinely just got bored Confused

tinierclanger · 03/03/2011 17:24

It is an impossible question and it was a stupidly flippant thread title. I wanted to discuss the birth options scenarios without getting personal and side tracking the other thread. It wasn't meant to sound attacking and I had intended to come back and expand but had a domestic crisis and didnt. I'm interested though in whether there are gender differences in expectation of how this stuff should happen. Will try and revisit later if I have more time. My past view of feminism has been that 'natural' labour has been prized but is that true? Does it still stand? Does it matter how we give birth?

OP posts:
QueenofWhatever · 03/03/2011 20:13

Not sure if this helps, but I'm an NHS manager. When I was pregnant with DD and having an elective c-section, lots of female consultants I worked with sidled up telling me that they had all had elective c-sections. They found it slightly bizarre that people wouldn't (not obstetricians themselves).

I'm with them actually. An elective c-section is much less stressful and surprisingly safe. I also think the whole no pain relief stuff is bollocks, even though I know many, many people don't agree with me. You wouldn't let a dentist take a tooth out while you gently inhale a bit of lavender oil, no you want full-on pain relief. I think it is a gender issue.

SardineQueen · 03/03/2011 21:18

Hope everything is OK on the domestic front now TC.

On this section I don't think that anyone would hold a view on what another woman "ought" to do. As no choices that we make are made in a vacuum. So even if eg I hold a view that I think is "right" WRT birth, it would be wrong of me to try and impose that on someone else IYSWIM.

I do know that there are concerns about the over-medicalisation of birth in some quarters - male doctors historically taking over and telling women what to do - and that is a very good point and a very interesting discussion.

Speaking for myself, I had an EMCS and then an ELCS and was very happy with both Grin

tinierclanger · 04/03/2011 08:03

Thanks sardinequeen, it was a leak type crisis, nothing too traumatic!

That is interesting, queenofwhatever, and something I had suspected. I wonder why birth pain seems to be considered special. I've done this myself, sold the idea to friends about to give birth that the pain is not like other pain and therefore manageable.

OP posts:
SardineQueen · 04/03/2011 08:58

Don't forget the religious idea that women must undergo the pain of labour.

That sort of stuff formed opinion for millennia and shouldn't be dismissed. The bible says women must suffer in childbirth. Make if it what you will. Would be an interesting discussion. I think that a lot of things that we think are actually old ideas sugar coated with new reasons.

EdgarAleNPie · 04/03/2011 09:26

the pain isn't like other pain. and there are consequences of taking pain relef - there just isn't a magic wand to wave to solve the problem!

taken in the round, a c-s is very definitely not an easy or pain-free experience (maybe female consultants get a better job done than most) and has a 6 week recovery period (particularly difficult for BF women - who get prescribed pain meds they can't take without making their baby too sleepy to feed as happened to my neighbour...)- and in other areas of practice nonsurgical methods are usually preferred where available - so why not in childbirth?

and it isn't an unreasonable view that choosing pain reduction strategies (home birth, massage, tens, water birth) that enable active birthing may make for a less painful experience taken in the whole - with less likelihood of resulting injury too.

hospital interventions often put women through more pain than necessary - something like 1 in 5 women has some form of induction, be it relatively painless, or ARM, just being in a hospital makes the experience more painful, monitoring, unfavourable positions etc - do we think men would put up with such a cavalier attitude to their well-being?

although i think historically the male attitude has been 'silly women, you need to be in a big safe hospital rather than at home with another silly woman. You need a man to deliver your child.' Regardless of the fact the very presence of that man increases the chances of interventions being used. Regardless of the difficulty involved in getting to that hospital in labour.

However, i think increasingly the divide is less male/female and more HCP/patient. The 'this is policy, so we're doing it' line seems to get trotted out at man and woman alike.

SardineQueen · 04/03/2011 09:37

OTOH if you don't have the "wonders of modern medicine" then you end up with a lot of dead women and dead babies.

I am also interested that 6 week recovery period for CS is mentioned (even though many women find they recover quickly and its not terribly painful) while the sometimes lifechangingly awful possible consequences of vaginal birth are not. No-one on my ante-natal classes mentioned tearing at all, or the possibility of incontinence or anything like that. Some of the women on MN have never recovered physically from their vaginal deliveries, and some have never recovered mentally either. When the "vagnial vs CS" debates happen the possible after-effects of CS are always mentioned, the ones for VB rarely. I find that interesting in itself.

It seems that if women are damaged by a CS, as that is something that was done to them as part of an operation it is big and important. But if they have been damaged terribly by VB, no-one talks about it.

There are definitely things going on underneath here, forming these ideas. And I think they are very entrenched.

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