Gender Stereotyping

[DrRichandNimble]

Hi, this is a thread inspired by a thread so apologies for that. but i think it raises a few feminist issues.

It seems that a lot of men (and indeed women) buy quite heavily into the gender stereotypes. Girls wearing pink and boys not playing with dollies etc.

In the thread i saw (about a lady wanting to seperate from her partner because he was so against the idea of buying his son a toy kitchen) The OP consideres herself a feminist and she felt that was why she reacted so strongly.

But surely this is just further evidence of the patriachal society at work. That whilst we accept it has "brainwashed" women over generations, we find it more difficult maybe to see that it has done the same to men.

What do we think?

I totally agree. Men have been as brainwashed, even if they benefit more. And they are fucking terrified most of the time, of not being found to be "man enough", so they police their own behaviour and many of them only ever reveal their unsureness, fear etc., to a woman. And the really fucked up ones, then resent tht woman because they feel they've weakened themselves by admitting their fear.

And even though they know how fucking awful it is to be so oppressed by the fear of not measuring up to the absurd masculine construct the patriarchy has set up, they feel they have to continue it with their sons to protect them from being seen to be not measuring up.

You might like It's Robert Jensen talking about feminism and masculinity.

didn't read the other thread (saw the title but didn't read it) might go and have a look later.
but yes, of course. that's the whole point. gender stereotypes, binary opposition, each with their own set of nonsensical rules.
you can't really look at how society defines femininity without looking at how masculinity is defined. not without missing half of the picture, anyway.

you should have seen the backlash from the (male) beaver leader when i taught the cubs ironing and hoovering. you'd have thought i'd been whipping off their testicles with a rusty stanley knife. we took the girl guides fishing and taught them to chop the heads off and gut them. the fish, not the cubs, honest.

The thread in question was mine and I am almost regretting starting it as some of the responses are so depressing.

I don't want my DS to be pigeon holed into old fashioned masculine stereotypes. I want him to be free of all of that, which - in turn - would make him more likely to see females as equally able to do anything they set their minds to. I think it works both ways.

I am particularly riled by the age-old 'let boys be boys' line, which seems to involve allowing encouraging boys to play with guns and swords. It just angers me that we are still having to debate this in 2011 and people are still trotting out the same old shite.

I agree with 2nd poster.

My son (5)who has no father around is in my opinion more noticeably gender-neutral than some of his boy pals. One of his favourite toys was a kitchen, and he carries around a handbag (full of toy cars) and he asks to wear tights under his trousers if he's cold. I think this is because there's no Dad there to 'give out to me' or frown or tut if my son is doing one of these things. I know that even in 2011, my son's friends' dads, nice guys though they may be, would have a ridiculous over reaction to their son wearing a pair of grey tights under his jeans. (eg)

because there is no 'policing'

Leaing someone for buying a toy kitchen? wtf!

I had toy machine guns when I was kid, and I turn out 'butch' or whatever.

I've noticed fathers re very uncomfortable with this not to be sexist but I see alot of 'you don't want that son' if they pick up somthing pink, my DP is guilty too,

I think being so deeply intrenched its hard to get rid , I think primary school level intervention would be ideal

*god cant spell

think it's too late by primary school. i've been able to allow my son freedom to make his own choices because he's not at primary school yet. next sep though. (they start a bit older here)

and nobody is really going to leave their partner over a toy kitchen. it's the conversation that the toy kitchen provokes and the attitudes that are revealed, and the discovery that partner is absolutely uncompromising and his unreasonable perception of gender are carved in stone that would make somebody think, wow, is this who i want to raise children with?

i imagine!

Has anyone read Delusions of Gender: The Real Science Behind Sex Differences? Saw a review last week and wonder if it's any good.

I find this very interesting because I've been pondering on the way we start imprinting gender stereotypes on our DCs virtually from the moment they come out of womb.
DH and I tried to avoid pink for DD, but got so many presents of a pink tinge, it was impossible. And anyway, I happen to LIKE pink! But I found myself strangely reluctant to dress DD in things that looked too "boyish", which just goes to show how deeply ingrained some of these supposed "norms" are.

I was also thinking about the tights thing. I mean, socks are a PITA for babies/toddlers, whereas tights are much more practical because they can't pull them off nearly as easily. So I would be inclined to dress a DS in tights (if I had one) - but there would probably still be that silly niggling feeling about it in the back of my mind.

Ridiculous, eh?!

Yes, I've noticed DD automatically goes for purple/hot pink/red blocks, stacking cups and Duplo bricks.... I wonder how much of that I've imprinted on her myself (I like those colours and often wear them...DD has a lot of clothes in them) and how much is simply an innate preference of her own.

I don't mind how people dress their kids or what they play with, but what does really annoy me is when people say "You can't do that because you're a boy/girl".

With my eldest DD I was really into not gender stereotyping her but nevertheless at about 3/4 she went through a "Everything must be pink and twirly" stage. Now at five she says purple is her favourite colour, and some days she is all about fairies and princesses and others she even says "I hate princesses".

As for me my mum tried to dress me in trousers but after age 3/4 I refused to wear them and didn't wear trousers at all until I was about 11... At the same time though I has equal numbers of boys as friends as girls and used to charge about on my bike or playing football or cricket with them - but always in a dress or skirt :)

Generally I think they get their ideas from you as a parent, and if you are a couple how you treat one another and the relative roles you have in the home. I'm quite relaxed about what toys they play with - what I do pick up on is if the eldest has heard something at school which I don't agree with. My eldest DD came home saying that girls couldn't marry girls and I put her straight there.

She also said that daddy was in charge because he is a boy. After I stopped crying with laughter, picked myself up from rolling about on the floor and composed myself I corrected her on that score also.