but it's my choice, so it must be feminist, right?

[chibi]

this is often given as a justification for things that i would consider anti-feminist: choosing to be a lapdancer is a feminist act if the woman is freely choosing it for example

i could be really facetious and say that right now i have chosen to start this thread rather than work on my essay (whoops), and since i am a woman, this too is a feminist choice, or tonight I am having a beef casserole instead of pasta and this is a feminist choice too

do those proponents of a 'it's my choice ergo it is feminist' POV not think that it is possible for women to make choices that undermine themselves or other women in terms of equality?

can anyone who comes from this perspective clarify it further for me?

dittany - believe me i'm hairy enough and infrequent enough on the leg shaving that plenty of people have seen my hairy legs :o Why do i shave them at all? I'm sure it is because i do have ingrained societal pressure. it doesn't feel 'ladylike' to me to be hairy, so clearly i am influenced by society, but it is low down my list of priorities really as i care much less about being ladylike than i do about umpteen other things like caring for my family, enjoying my job, having fun with my friends, eating nice food etc.

i know that because i'm lucky not to have been marginalised for living with my hairiness, that not all women are as lucky, but i was trying to make the point that not all women are marginalised or attacked (which seemed to be coming out as the assumed position on this thread) because of it so women shouldn't automatically assume it will if they choose not to follow society's rules on how women should be.

engelbert - i guess i don't really care too much about acquaintances' view of my hairy, make up free body. I want them to value me for other things, and if they choose to judge me on that then they're not really somebody whose opinion I care about as they're only acquaintances.

I have literally never realised I had such a 'fuck 'em' attitude over this before reading this thread. I hate that women feel they can't have a stray pube (or thousand in my case) sticking out when they go swimming for example - it has just never occurred to me that it is a problem. Embracing my hairiness is something that has happened organically over time rather than me one day deciding to make an overt political stand over this, but actually it is a political decision not to shave, isn't it, because I have chosen to prioritise what is important to me over what society thinks I should be like. And it has been as free a choice as one can make with societal pressures, because it is completely against society's normal expectation of a woman.

But of course I must reiterate that I come from a position of being white, straight, non-disabled, well-educated, bright, articulate, fairly well-off etc. So this is the only thing I could be marginalised on really, and it clearly doesn't register with other people as the most important thing about me. And I genuinely don't think people notice - if you asked my friends and acquaintances to describe me physically in 10 words, I doubt any of them would use the word hairy. They would probably say 'a bit podgy', but that is a whole other issue, isn't it?

I think I'm probably getting us way off the point here and somehow making this about me. Sorry if I am - wasn't really my intention. As ever when reading the feminist boards (haven't contributed since the cognitive dissonance threads as i now have a small baby and toddler and know i would get way too sucked in for what i can manage at the moment, but i love reading for now), I have learnt and thought about something new about myself. I do need to try hanging out here more.

This just adds to the whole theory that to be a feminist one must not shave, have an au natural lady garden (ie out of control bush), live in flat shoes and never wear make up. It's all bollocks frankly.

I trim my bush, I shave my legs, I wear make up every day and I wear high heels more than I wear flats. I am also not anti porn.

I consider myself to be a feminist too.

What do you make of that?

DrN - if you say you are a feminist then I believe you. I don't assume women who care about their appearance like you aren't feiminist. There are plenty of things I do that many wouldn't consider to be feminist - married, took husband's name on marriage, work part time so i can be more involved with raising the children. Yet I mos definitely am, and this is one way I don't conform to what aociety expects of me.

But I find it interesting that on this topic so few women will differ from the societal norm when it should be such a minor thing really. It's Martin Luther King again really, isn't it - wishing that we were judged not on appearance but on the content of our character.

DrN - What I make of it is that you're in a stage in your feminism 'journey' that makes you feel very defensive about some things.

I'm a feminist. I shave my legs. I wish I didn't feel a need to, but I do - I like my legs shaven. But I know that that feeling comes from the patriarchal society we live in - "women have smooth legs". I also know that by continuing to shave my legs, I perpetuate the idea that "women have smooth legs", but it is something that, at this moment in time, I can't get past.

I do other things to normalise certain behaviour, like breastfeed in public, and pull people up on misogynist/sexist comments. I do what I can, and that's all anyone can do.

Consider a woman who is so browbeaten she stays with a violent husband, even though she knows deep down she's allowing him to behave like that by not leaving him, but she just can't do it because he has such emotional control over her. Is she no less a feminist just because the level of patriarchal control over her is too strong for her to break out of? No, of course not!

You need, IMO, to loosen up and challenge your assumptions and behaviour. It's the only way to learn, and develop. Having a go at people who's discourse is challenging to you achieves nothing.

It's people thinking, Dittany, I think, 'but I like to shave my legs!' and not being in a place where they can accept the idea that their desires are culturally conditioned. My brother found it very hard to accept that he isn't in complete control of his interests and ideas...most of us do, don't we?

And the gut reaction to that is, in a lot of people, to attack the person who has suggested such a challenging thing.

I was going to say something similar to Dittany.
Feminists go around saying 'You don't have to shave your legs if you don't want to' and this gets misunderstood as 'You MUSTN'T shave your legs.'

I think it's the suggestion that by continuing to do it, you are perpetuating the assumption that all women must do it...which is true. But it doesn't mean you should self-sacrifice yourself for the cause when it's such a small thing IMO.

I shave my legs because I want to.

Sometimes I don't shave them for weeks because I don't want to.

I don't feel liberated if my legs are hairy.

Nor do I feel I am conforming to gender type if I do. I just feel nicer, and sexier with smoother legs. I prefer it.

And any guy who refuses to shag a woman with hairy legs is a loser anyway and I would not waste a second of my time on him.

I may have referred to this before but a year or so back there was a thread about female grooming. A poster was reporting that she has ben going up an escalator behind a woman in sandals and was revolted by the fact she had cracked heels. When she was challenged (eventually! she insisted it was just meant to be lighthearted but the fact that so many others piled in with their examples of 'disgusting' female non-grooming suggested that lot of people took it very seriously.

I don't give a flying fuck what you shave, or how often, or how many chemicals you choose to plaster yourself with! It's entirely up to you. But start telling other women they are disgusting, lazy or unsightly because they choose not to, you can just fuck right off! That is poisonous anti-feminism as far as I am concerned. A woman in her natural state is disgusting?

I was going to respond to Sakura's response to my claim that "Men oppress themselves and each other all the time. Women do the same." She mentioned Chinese women binding their daughters' feet, but I wasn't thinking about anything so horrific. But speaking of feet--Sakura, if you see this, look at Ormirian's post just above this! That's exactly what I meant. Women really do try to keep each other in line on questions of appearance.

Nooka said "My male friends and colleagues wear shorts and t-shirts in the summer, I can't really see that they are suffering greatly." True if things are informal, but what about a work or formal situation? Then it's into that all-covering uniform for the men, but women have a lot more freedom; choice is what this topic is about, and women do have choices. Even if the demand is that women must shave, they do have the choice (that word again) to cover up instead.

Speaking even more about feet, oh that poor sister of EngelbertFustianMcSlinkydog's. No doubt the store wants their employees to project the image that sophisticated women use cosmetics and buy expensive shoes, but what a miserable thing to have to do. And I bet she has to stand up most of the day, too.

But it's her choice.

I wonder if she would get the sack if she came to work in flat shoes or without make up (but otherwise groomed)? I recently had the misfortune to go to a restaurant where the female servers were mostly wearing hot pants (the guys of course were wearing jeans, although both were wearing tshirts with 'ironic' aka offensive slogans on them). I found it hard to believe that that was actually legal (this was in Canada and I'm not sure what the rules are here) but again no doubt this would be seen as those womens choice. I know that it is my choice to avoid that chain in future!