but it's my choice, so it must be feminist, right?

[chibi]

this is often given as a justification for things that i would consider anti-feminist: choosing to be a lapdancer is a feminist act if the woman is freely choosing it for example

i could be really facetious and say that right now i have chosen to start this thread rather than work on my essay (whoops), and since i am a woman, this too is a feminist choice, or tonight I am having a beef casserole instead of pasta and this is a feminist choice too

do those proponents of a 'it's my choice ergo it is feminist' POV not think that it is possible for women to make choices that undermine themselves or other women in terms of equality?

can anyone who comes from this perspective clarify it further for me?

Good question. I shall be thinking...

I think it's ok as long as social pressures are equal for everyone, and not harmful. I would prefer it if we could all just live and let live, though!

HFTB

Particularly inspired by Sakura here, in some ways it's actually women who have most choice on an everyday basis; maybe this is so ingrained in our expectations that even feminists aren't quick to see it.

A woman who doesn't want to shave her legs or her underarms only has to wear trousers or tops with sleeves, perfectly acceptable almost everywhere these days. Men have to wear those things almost all the time! And there are more choices for women too--leggings and opaque tights and skirts that meet boots in the knee region, for instance. And even at the swimming pool, no woman has to wear a skimpy suit that shows a fringe of pubic hair; there are longer swimsuits available.

Men start to get a little revenge in summer though, if they stroll off to the supermarket (say) in shorts, when a woman would need to be a little brazen to do that with unshaved legs. But then, that same woman can go almost anywhere with bare legs and no sleeves. At a social event in hot weather, or even at the office, who's loaded with clothes and who's dressed for the weather?

People are very quick to say "no choices" when they're really not imaginative enough to look at what's available to them!

TeiTua, I think you may have misunderstood my point

Maybe you should re-state it, but I think the main issue is that when it comes to clothing and grooming, our society makes different rules for women and men, and not all to women's disadvantage, so it's wrong to look at just the effect on women.

Basically, women have far more choice in clothing than men do, especially if it's a question of anything skimpy or revealing.

On the other hand, men's body hair can be shown in informal circumstances, whereas women must never let any hair be seen at all.

Who comes out better? I'm not sure.

HFTB - I am still thinking on that one. But yes you're right re social pressures. The reason people don't commit crime is often cos of the social pressure that it is wrong, so a shared ethic rather than because the law says so. So social pressures can also be for the good.

The point you are missing about "women have far more choice" is that is has always been, and continues to be, men who make the rules. The fashion world is dominated by men, gay men predominantly.
Female fashion, once men took over from us making clothes ourselves, was directed by what men wanted of women. Considering the fact that it's men who also design and make men's fashions, I can't take you seriously when you say they're oppressing themselves, that they have some masochistic urge only to wear comfortable clothing that hides their sexuality.

Fashion and the social pressures that affect people are related, but not the same. And let's not say that women are men's toys when it comes to what to wear! Lots of women are highly interested in clothing and grooming, with significant industries to support that interest. Including many women in creative roles. They deserve credit! Or blame, if one thinks it's merited.

Men oppress themselves and each other all the time. Women do the same. But a "masochistic urge to wear comfortable clothing" sounds like a self-indulgent urge! However, men's clothing isn't always comfortable, especially formal wear in warm weather. As I said, it's women who can dress to respond to the seasons, while men have to stay in uniform. We have these different rules; I don't know who's got the best of it.

Feminism recognises that gender stereotyping cultural pressures can be bad for men as well as women. However it's really worth thinking about why it's considered as generally acceptable for women to wear "men's" clothes and yet not the other way around.

To me that suggests it's OK for women to aspire to being men, but really very unacceptable the other way around. Men who behave in a feminine way or take on feminine attributes get a very rough ride. This is obviously a bad thing for those men (or boys) but it also reflects womens low status.

I don't like shaving my armpits or my legs, but like others feel very very strong pressure to do so. Sure I can always cover up, but why should I feel that my natural state is so unacceptable it has to be hidden? My male friends and colleagues wear shorts and t-shirts in the summer, I can't really see that they are suffering greatly.

TeiTua, if you don't know who has got the best of it then honestly "Beauty and Misogyny" will really open your eyes to the power at play.

Men oppress weaker men and all women.
Women do what they can to survive under patriarchy. You're on shaky ground with the "women oppress each other" line. For example, male historians have gleefully reported that it was women who bound Chinese children's feet, completely forgetting to mention that men would not marry a woman with unbound feet. So if women are "oppresing" other women, you can't extricate that behaviour from their oppressed conditions.

What we do know for sure is that women are not oppressing men.

The other day I was thinking about the impracticality of girls/women's clothing. We'd gone in to get my daughter a hoodie/jumper. All the ones pitched at girls were really thin and no lining; all the ones pitched at boys were thick and actually suitable for playing outside in.

Yeah, we got one from the boys section.

Ahhh dittany. Thank the lord! I was getting moithered

What dittany said!

This idea of grooming though, I wonder if a lot of it is self-imposed or at least reinforced by other women. I don't actually think most men expect it of us, except that they expect it because we happen to do it quite often so notice when we don't.

I am a hairy woman. I tried grooming my pubic hair once or twice but hated being plucked like a chicken. I've given up bothering. DH doesn't seem to bother too much about it, and nobody has said anything to my face at the swimming pool even when I chaneg in the public area :) and I don't care what strangers say behind my back. I rarely shave my legs - I wear trousers throughout the winter so it's a non-issue and in the summer I will occasionally shave them but I would need to do it every day to remain hair free and with 2 small children I have better things to be doing with my time. The only thing I do shave is my underarms, because I hate the BO smell I get if the hairs get too long. I have facial hair, which I occasionally pluck when it gets a bit noticeable because I don't like seeing dark hairs on my chin, but they are often visible to others anyway. I have hairs on my nipples but I still breastfeed in public. I don't wear make-up except maybe 2 or 3 times a year when I have a big night out with DH and I just fancy dolling myself up (and I use the word 'doll' with intent there!). I brush my hair neatly but don't have any fancy coiffure. I wear a bra because I have big boobs and my back hurts without but I don't wear hold it all in knickers. I don't wear high heels because I can't walk in them and my feet hurt.

And you know what, nothing bad has happened to me. I have not been attacked or marginalised. I haven't lost friends over it, I am making new friends at the moment, I haven't lost a job over it, I've progressed quite nicely in my chosen career, and my husband and children love me. I am Middle Class Normal and Boring. But I suppose I have all the advantages of being obviously white and straight and not disabled, intelligent, having a good degree and being good at my job and being friendly and sociable and so my lack of conforming to female stereotypes isn't the most important thing about me, and it is the only area in life where I probably don't conform.

I never thought I was a self-confident person. I have plenty of hang ups. But I can do this, and I have made the choice because I have more interesting things to do with my time than pluck every hair from my body and coat every visible skin cell in chemicals. And nothing bad has happened to me. So why are so many women afraid that it will?

Not sure what I'm trying to say here - I don't mean this as a boast. I hadn't even thought about these things until I read this thread and realised how little I do conform even while being on the surface one of the most conforming of boring middle class Brits there are. So if I can, I wonder why more women can't?