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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Fiction Book Club - Villette 9pm March 9th

128 replies

Unrulysun · 25/02/2011 12:21

Can we think of some questions to start us off too?

At the moment (p40) I'm interested in why Lucy tells us so little about herself and in that awful relationship between the child and the boy :(

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TondelayoSchwarzkopf · 16/03/2011 20:17

Just marking place now. I've got a few ideas but no over-riding thesis...

Unrulysun · 16/03/2011 20:23

I'm here.

I have to confess to still having 50 pages to go - so if there's a surprise alien abduction in the last chapter I don't know about it. I have read the end though :(

I think what struck me about it was how utterly tiny women's existence was - like when Paulina talks about getting the letter from Graham and how she ekes out this tiny bit of interest, cutting around the seal, not letting herself read it until she's said her prayers etc. And Lucy not being allowed to look at the painting. Just so very controlled and dull.

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StewieGriffinsMom · 16/03/2011 20:32

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SerialComma · 16/03/2011 20:53

I read this book last year and so may have forgotten much that is important. The analysis quoted by SGM all rings true.

What struck me very strongly was Lucy's ambivalent combination of admiration and contempt for many of the people around her, an ambivalence which I think is typical of a woman who is highly able, psychologically powerful, but condemned by all the socialising forces ranged against women to have very poor self-esteem.

She is scathing about herself, about her unworthiness of love; and that self-devaluation breeds a too-ready over-estimation of others. She regards other people, particularly Dr John, as being too much her superiors to have time for a worthless person like her. But at the same time she is very fully conscious of her worth despite all the self-abnegating pressures placed upon her. So she hates the people she feels compelled to admire; she is absolutely scathing of them. She knows she is better than them and she is furious with them for extracting her self-deploring admiration of them.

And, I think, she is scathing of her readers too: she taunts us by subverting our so-conventional expectations of a conventional narrative with aconventional ending.

A similar defensive hatred and contempt of the powerful those who prevent her worth from reaping its just rewards is present in Jane Eyre. But I dislike Jane Eyre because ultimately she triumphs over her oppressors by aligning herself with a powerful man, and then (courtesy of her author) symbolically castrating that man by blinding him. Lucy triumphs in the end by her own quietly determined autonomy, and her exceptional professional skills. Yes she is aided by a man -- but a man who is compelled against his rather arrogant will to love her, a man who is deferring to her power (not her feminine power over him but her autonomous worth). And he is a man who is ultimately absent: Lucy's post-novel career is as a single woman.

Prolesworth · 16/03/2011 20:55

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TeiTetua · 16/03/2011 21:02

The clock just struck! The hour is come!

Just as Mr Rochester is left blind, the Professor is killed. So Jane gets the tamed monster, and Lucy is left alone.

He defers to her, and then is gone, first to exile then death. I don't quite get the point of this. A man can't do such a thing and live? If he'd survived, Lucy would have had a life of terror and subjugation?

StewieGriffinsMom · 16/03/2011 21:04

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StewieGriffinsMom · 16/03/2011 21:05

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TeiTetua · 16/03/2011 21:09

And yet, there's no doubt that she adored him by the end of the book, in fact a good long way before the end. No, he was an awful bully. But I'm not sure how we're meant to imagine him as a husband. He's so respectful of Lucy by the end that he'd never do anything cruel again? Or she'd always make him back down?

I wonder if the locked-in-the-attic scene was a little homage to people who'd read Jane Eyre.

StewieGriffinsMom · 16/03/2011 21:11

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TeiTetua · 16/03/2011 21:11

Actually, he didn't lock her in the attic because he was angry (even if he was) but to make sure she learned her lines for his stupid play, which nobody else could do. He was forcing her to use her intellect, but of course the sadism was part of that scene too. Cruelty mixed with some kind of grudging respect for her intelligence.

Unrulysun · 16/03/2011 21:12

He's SO unpleasant. But she seems to find his brand of unpleasantness better than Graham's?

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SerialComma · 16/03/2011 21:13

Paul is a clown, and it does spoil the book a bit I think. There is racism in the portrayal? Foreigners, especially Catholic ones, can't be taken wholly seriously by Bronte?

But that aside, I think he really is cornered into a position of utterly respecting her for her talents and intellect. Rochester just feels infatuated by a woman that won't be cowed he is a bit of a cliche a man who wants a feisty woman.

But Paul does admire Lucy for something like the right reasons? And so the ending of the story, in which he provides for her future successful career, is the right kind of triumph for her? She isn't pigeonholed as a minxy woman that her lover just has to have. She is established as a professional.

Agreed that Pauls's absence from her post-novel life is similar to Rochester's 'taming' in some ways. But ultimatley it is a victory for her autonomy. Jane is NOT autonomous. She lives through a powerful man.

I saw Paul's disappearance at the end to be something to do with Bronte's contempt for her reader. She is playing with us.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf · 16/03/2011 21:14

OK. I'm trying to drink wine and make a bechamel sauce at the same time but here goes:

My favourite bits are all about "drag" - the bit where Lucy is in the school play as Ginevra's lover, Cleopatra in the art gallery, the two-faced character of Madame Beck, Lucy & Ginevra are in front of the mirror comparing themselves and where Lucy wearing the pink dress to the theatre. All are about femininity as a performance and the contortions one goes through to perform a feminine role acceptable to society. Lucy's position is ambiguous - the duplicity & money hunger she finds repulsive in Ginevra - she admires in Madame Beck.

Cleopatra especially is a brilliant bit of writing - David Lodge discussed it when he talks about defamiliarisation - that she looks at a conventional piece of artwork and totally deconstructs it in the eyes of the viewer making it ridiculous. The painting is clearly supposed to be an epic piece of nude portraiture but the clear-sighted way she looks at it and the contortions made to please the male gaze and the demands of feminism - renders it ridiculous and encourages the reader to look again at how much we accept the conventions of art and the dominant culture.

StewieGriffinsMom · 16/03/2011 21:14

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swallowedAfly · 16/03/2011 21:15

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Unrulysun · 16/03/2011 21:16

But that's not the only time he imprisons her either is it? There's the scene in the classroom where she keeps trying to get away with excuses. He did seem, to me, to be a very sexually jealous man, in a time when sexually jealous bullying must have been very much behind closed doors.

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TeiTetua · 16/03/2011 21:16

Oh, but that scene in the park where she spied on him for once instead of the other way round, and then became lost in depression when she thought he was going to marry his ward. And her desperation to see him before he sailedthat's more than just wanting a few last tips on the classics! And of course they do agree to marry when he gets back from Guadeloupe. I'm afraid I see this as handing the Victorian audience the kind of romance they'd appreciatebut then snatching it back.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf · 16/03/2011 21:17

Sorry - posted before I read all the stuff about Paul.

I think he is part of the submissive / dominant themes of the book. Lucy when she gets to Belgium becomes a complete submissive, passively relying on other characters to shape her fate. She is in thrall to dominant men despite her hatred of the passive role society has carved for her.

StewieGriffinsMom · 16/03/2011 21:17

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swallowedAfly · 16/03/2011 21:20

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TondelayoSchwarzkopf · 16/03/2011 21:20

There's a strong anti-Catholic vibe for sure but then the priest saves her...and the nun bit...

Unrulysun · 16/03/2011 21:21

I thought a queer theorist would have had a field day with Lucy and Ginevra btw?

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TondelayoSchwarzkopf · 16/03/2011 21:21

Isn't there an echo of their relationship in that of the love affair of the old woman she looked after at the beginning? It's like it comes full circle.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf · 16/03/2011 21:22

YY Unruly. There is a very sexy undertone there.