Why no men at events like MWR?

[FlamingoBingo]

Sorry, another naive question! A friend has asked why there are no men at events like these - what's the answer!?

But why? My friend wonders what we are achieving by excluding a potentially large number of supporters.

Honestly, this is not me asking this question, but I still don't know enough to argue the point with her coherently! She's giving me good practice though

Her again, Flamingo? :o

I think there is room for more mixed events to support women's rights.

BUT I think that MWR is all women, because it's called, er, Million Women Rise, and wants to create a powerful message to women in the UK and worldwide, that women can come out onto the streets and be strong, be together, shout, march and take over the city/world :)

It's because it's a general protest march I think. The whole point of it is that women are doing it.

If it were a march on a specific issue e.g. No Recourse to Public Funds then I would hope to see both men and women marching together.

Yup! Same one! She's being very useful in letting me practice honing my arguments! I am aware I'm sounding like when you ask something embarrassing 'for a friend' though

Re. the initial question. I did say that to her, but she still doesn't really get it (and neither do I, if I'm honest - I'm just more willing to accept that a big group of women is a good thing). She did say that, for instance, 'People for Women' wouldn't sound as good as 'Women for Women' but she questions the actual point of excluding men - what it acheives?

I think she just doesn't understand, Dittany...or is defensive of her DH who behaves like a decent human being. Mine does too, but I am too aware that he is in a minority. This is just supposition, though - I am going to ask her next time (unless she reads this threads and posts on it!) why she feels it's such a big issue.

I think your middle paragraph is helpful though. I have lent her my copy of Reclaiming the F-Word, which I've just finished. She is keen to understand it.

Yes I think the central point of having e.g. Reclaim the Night as women only is for women, to reclaim the streets at night :o But the point that women who are there (probably even more than women in general) are fairly likely to have experienced male violence, are likely to find it easier to walk together surrounded by other women, rather than men who may be a threat. I'm not saying that all men, or most men, are a threat btw. But some are,and keeping RTN or MWR as "safe spaces" for women to speak (or shout) out is the most important thing.

I knowhat you mean dittany but I think it's possible to feel overly suspicious, because I'm lucky enough to know men who would genuinely like to come along and support the cause of women's rights, but currently don't have many outlets to do so.

I think it is the point of the RTN is to say women should be safe to walk the streets at night without men

That's the point of it, so by having men there would kind of divert the message.

Yeah, that's why RTN is a bit different to MWR. :o

One thing I found very moving about the RTN march I went on last year was the way it is set up with male supporters joining the march towards the end of the route - the symbolism worked very well. And marches are in part theatre.

Oh come on, dittany. Some men are dicks who will be all "oi, what about men? when's our march? you're all sexists!". BUT there are others, including people I know, who genuinely want to come out onto the streets and say that they are outraged by violence against women, how often it happens and how rarely the perpetrators are punished. Yes they do things like sign the white ribbon pledge and talk to other men etc, but they want to help in other ways too.

I would love to see a mixed march for women's rights, because at the moment it gives the impression, as we go through the streets, that only women can care about women's rights. Or that we are all living in a women-only world. Whereas in fact many of us are living with men, or have close relationships with sons, fathers, brothers, friends etc who do give a toss about this injustice as well.

really Dittany? I think having a small group of men join the march at a fixed point in a way that is very clearly subservient to the overall point of the march, which is women marching for themselves, makes the point quite well that there is a place for men as supporters of a woman-led movement.

Men aren't "demanding" anything Dittany.

We, women, are asking why men can't show their support for a cause that they think is important.

Totally agree with Dittany about the symbolism of men being on a RTN march.

There may be a place for male support of feminism, and in truth it is obligatory for the success of feminism to get support from men, but at this point in time a RTN march is not a place where men should be IMO.

As I said, I think that RTN should be women only (although men having a supportive demo is good AFAIC too, perhaps away from the main march though), and I think MWR should be women only. Both for good, though different reasons.

What I would like to see though is a mixed demo in the calendar. Because it would really challenge people's viewpoints to see men marching with women on this issue. Suddenly it wouldn't just be "lesbians" or "man haters" etc, but families marching together, couples, brothers and sisters (my bro would love to come), adult sons with their mothers or grandmothers, girls with their grandfathers. Plenty of men have lost their loved ones to male violence committed by others, or had to support women/girls in their lives through the trauma of rape or attack. They might want to come along and help to swell the ranks of people saying THIS IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

I can quite understand the symbolism of no men at a RTN march. And, I have to say, no man has said to me 'why can't I come?'. It's only women who've asked.

How fantastic if men arranged a men's march against violence against women!

all very good points and its good to see people standing up to it being a womens only march i have posted about mwr on other websites and have got very angry responses about it being women only.

quote ElephantsAndMiasmas

What I would like to see though is a mixed demo in the calendar. Because it would really challenge people's viewpoints to see men marching with women on this issue. Suddenly it wouldn't just be "lesbians" or "man haters" etc, but families marching together, couples, brothers and sisters (my bro would love to come), adult sons with their mothers or grandmothers, girls with their grandfathers. Plenty of men have lost their loved ones to male violence committed by others, or had to support women/girls in their lives through the trauma of rape or attack. They might want to come along and help to swell the ranks of people saying THIS IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

this is a great idea and i agree that this needs to be done aswell. its so brilliant seeing all this greatness from wonderful people it brings a tear to my eye.

thanks for showing me that i am not alone :)

Do you think it would be helpful to have an FAQ on websites for things that are women only, where it can be explained, in words of one syllable, why it is women-only?

I think people see women only, and find it hard to get an answer as to why, and get on the defensive. I found it hard to find an answer (although it didn't bother me, so was really finding out so I can answer those who are bothered by it) on any websites and a whole discussion has ensued here to explain it well. Surely something succinct can be cobbled together to put on these websites?

I think there is a place on the MWR website which explains this very question for your friend.

Let me see if I can link

Thank you - I did search for it, honest!

Just emailed it to my friend