How to argue this one!?

[FlamingoBingo]

A discussion on FB about the need for feminism. Mostly positive, I have to say. But one woman, from the US, said that she is definitely not a feminist, because feminists go on tv programmes in the US and say that women are better than men; so are not just seeking equality for women, but actually want women to have more than men.

So how would you reply?

She said, apparently, that you see it on talk shows etc. Would you actually ask her for examples if it were you? Because you would actually be saying you think she's lying, right?

I think I would say 'Who are they? I've never come across a feminist who argued this!'
yes, I think you do have to ask for examples.

You could argue that in your opinion these women are not feminists. Perhaps explain your take on feminism.

Why wouykld you even bother to engage with someone who obviously has no brain?

And argueing 'the need for feminism'

Is it not as pointless as argueing the need for food?

I don't know, Dittany. I don't know anything about feminism in the US - I imagine there are people who think women are superior to men...there are people who still think white people are superior to black people. But whether they refer to themselves as feminists or not, I don't know.

I agree it's probably bullshit - I said to her that I've never known a feminist thinking that, and that's clearly bollocks - some people are better at some things than others and it's got nothing to do with sex or gender.

I'm going to go and re-read the conversation and see if there's a way I can ask her 'retrospectively' for examples.

you do it for the lurkers Moondog.
Like on here. Most of the time you are never going to convince the actual person you are arguing with but there are other people reading the conversation.

Fair enough.

Ok, back in the conversation, she said it was 'major leading feminists' in the US who 'strive to be better than men' and that they're often talk show guests etc.

I've just asked her who they are because I'd like to read more about them, and why they're saying such things.

can you imagine if major leading feminists were often talk show guests?

what an unbelievable load of shit the woman is talking!

I agre with yama.

It doesn't matter if these people do or do not exist, it matters whether that is what feminism is about. Which it isn't.

Good answer, FlamingoBingo. :)

Even if these women do actually exist they are a tiny minority of women who are exhibiting extremism - not feminism.

Choosing to cherry pick these women, who are not representatives of the commonly held tenets and values of the political movement that is feminism, is choosing to embrace a distorted view of the movement.

I would be tempted to question why your friend chooses to cling to these extremists (who may or may not exist on talk shows in the US) rather than seek out real feminists.

I would ask her to give examples - the way you have done this is great. I'm betting that she either won't have examples or if she does, it will turn put that these women have been misrepresented.

If you feel it is worth it, you may want to explore the fact that mainstream media and the patriarchy actively misrepresent feminism in order to undermine it.

Oh FGS, Dittany! Do you truly, honestly think that every single woman in the world is perfect? Do you really think that every single person who calls her/himself a feminist has good morals? Of course there are idiots in the world! I am not comparing feminists to white supremacists!

One of the most mainstream tv doctors likes to say complete untruths about mothers who breastfeed their babies beyond a year - really vile, unpleasant stuff. That doesn't mean all doctors believe that, but it does suggest it to ignorant people who don't look any further.

Flipping heck, you need a thick skin to want to learn more from this MN topic!

Beachcomber - you are right - of course, if they exist, they will be a minority of extremists, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. It's not my friend, btw, it's a friend's friend who I don't know in the slightest!

Good response, Flamingo. Will you let us know if/when she gets back to you?

No, I am not comparing feminists to either of those things, so please stop suggesting that I am. You are being unkind.

I am saying that I do believe that there is a chance that there are women out there calling themselves feminists and calling for female supremacy.

Also, can you explain why you seem to think that having a go at people who want to know more will help the cause in the slightest?

I really am just trying to learn, and this is the second time now that you have responded, not by trying to explain things, but by leaping down my throat. And I know it's not just me you respond to like this. Why do you do it?

Flamingo I know dittany is very straight talking but she is actually trying to explain things to you.

If you read her posts carefully then there is a lot of information and analysis in them. I know she says things robustly but she is not being personal (as you have pointed out) - she is arguing her viewpoint and challenging yours.

I remember the very first exchange I had with dittany and I remember feeling like you appear to here. Now that I have got to 'know' dittany better and understand her uncompromising view, I get her and have learnt masses from her posts here. I look back and I can see that she was right about what she said to me in our first exchange.

I hope neither of you mind me sticking my nose in but I can see this from both sides. I have seen a few of your posts in the feminist section Flamingo and it is clear that you are asking some interesting questions.

It is tough being a feminist I think.

I know, and I appreciate that she is explaining things. I believe that she is often right, but I can't just say to people 'such and such because Dittany on Mumsnet said so', can I? I have to actually understand it, and it's really quite difficult to read an explanation when you're reading it through a fog of irritation at being responded to so aggressively.

I'm not asking that she stop posting, just that maybe she be a bit more sympathetic to those new to feminism/learning about feminism.

And I don't mind you sticking your nose in - I wouldn't have posted it publicly had I minded others' views.

I think it is more than possible that there are some women who describe themselves as feminists who hold the view that women are superior to men. It's also not a stretch that they might be invited onto talk shows as let's face it, it's a more extreme and exciting and crowd rousing thing for a guest to say than "hello I'm a feminist and I'm actually quite nice and normal".

So she may have seen it.

I think you should ask her who it was, alternatively say that none of the feminists that you know have ever said that. Alternatively talk about some blatently atrocious things happening to women around the world simply because they are women, and say that feminists are there to fight those things, that might give her pause for thought.

No reply yet - I think I lost my opportunity Sorry! I know what to say next time though.