"Little independent research on the impact of any equality group caused by lap dancing clubs" according to Bristol City Council

[JessinAvalon]

I am currently ploughing my way through the 119 page document that Bristol City Council have sent out in advance of the licensing committee meeting on Friday at which they'll be signing off the sex entertainment venue policy.

In it, they say:

"There is little independent research available on the types of activities that
would be regulated under this policy with regard to the potential for a
significant impact on any equality group."

This is despite consultation responses from the local NHS, which quoted the Home Office Sexualisation of Young People Review, Bristol University's Gender Violence Research Centre, Rape Crisis and a detailed response from Bristol Fawcett which referenced several academic papers.

Does 'independent research' only apply if you are a man???

I am speechless!

"I think you misunderstand the meaning of the word respect.

Having a naked woman gyrate on you might make you happy; I suspect they are wondering how to pay the rent"

They are doing a job for money. I am a customer.
A performer custmoer relationship does not preclude respect.

I suppose people don't understand what it's like to walk in other people's shoes.

I don't know what it's like to live your life and you don't know what it's like to live mine.

I can remember visiting strip clubs one day a couple of years ago. I visited 3-4 clubs and must have spent about 5 hours in them.

You people just can't comprehend the sheer joy of looking at women for hours.

For you it's probably sad, but for me it's really pleasurable.

I think you might be coming at this from an odd angle, Sinless. It's not that we don't get that it's fun and good for the men who visit lapdancing clubs. We get that. I get that it's nice to have some gorgeous woman prance around for your delectation, maybe even touch you if you're really lucky who knows? That's not really in doubt.

The question - and I appreciate it might be a tricky one for you to comprehend - is what the effects of these places are on a) the women who work there and b) (a v v tricky one this, but hold onto your hat) the women and girls who don't work there, but do have to walk past/live near/be treated to the 'banter' of the men using these sex encounter venues.

It is quite sweet though that you imagine that we object to sex encounter venues because we think you aren't having a good enough time. We get that you are having a good time. Really.

In my experience I think most of the women enjoy it.

I have never seen these massed ranks of guys hanging around the clubs. Not sure if they exist.
I think most clubs are quite good for the community.
There are those who say that areas around the clubs are lower in crime than other areas.
Probably not entirely objective research but no more biased that the stuff quoted above.

Anyway why are you trying to police other people's sexual activities?

How would you like to be told that you aren't allowed to have a boyfriend/girlfriend? That's the level of importance I attach to going to these clubs. That's why I talk of how good it is. It may not matter to you but to me it is extemely important.
That's why I oppose a nil policy. You are trying to take my sexuality away from me.

Of course the girlsall enjoy it, Sinless. They are 'gentleman's clubs', full of the cream of society. And I bet you're really hot too! In fact, maybe they should be paying you for the privilege?

Although I can't help but think that, if they loved it so much, they might just want to do it for free. Have you ever thought about having a proper relationship: you know, with someone you're not paying? I presume you think that all prostitutes love what they do too.

I can't help but think that a sexuality based on Peter Stringfellow's business model is a bit tragic.

Is it the power dynamic that you enjoy or do you not feel that you can attract a woman with having to part with money?

To go back to my earlier question, you advocate education. How would we go about educate you that to patronise strip clubs is damaging to women? What would make you stop going?

sinless6 Sun 23-Jan-11 21:24:12
"And, in the spirit of welcome, might I ask you what brought you to our humble online hangout, and this thread in particular?"

Just wanted to make a point about an issue that means a lot to me.
I have visited many lap dancing clubs since 1996. Must be well over 200 visits by now.

I know that immediately that means I will be seen as a bad person in some people's eyes but I don't think I am.

I believe, from my own experience, that there is far more respect between performers and customers than people assume.

Just thought I'd put another side to the argument.

Wow, what a catch!

I have a question for Sinless.

You are dismissing all the research that shows the existence of lapdancing clubs harms women (whether you've read it or not).
Suppose some research was produced that did meet the standards of objectivity and rigour you require, and demonstrated harm to women.

Would you stop going to them then? Or would you regard it as your inalienable right to express your sexuality no matter what the cost to everyone else?

Sinless, I assume you've told your wife about your litle strip club adventure?

I'm just wondering how she responded to your arguments...

Sinless is married?

Sinless is married?

Fair point. OK, replace 'wife' with 'female relatives, acquaintances and work colleagues'

"Of course the girlsall enjoy it, Sinless. They are 'gentleman's clubs', full of the cream of society."

This study
www.sociology.leeds.ac.uk/assets/files/research/events/PreliminaryMediaAug2010.pdf

showed 76.4% felt happy or very happy.
Of course that syudy could be biased, but which ones aren't?

"Have you ever thought about having a proper relationship: you know, with someone you're not paying?"

Not recently no. I'm perfectly happy to have a chat and a 3 minute lap dance, 6 or 7 in one night every 3 weeks or thereabouts.
I'm not particularly bothered about sex either.
I'm a sexual person who doesn't want sex. Strange but true.

"Is it the power dynamic that you enjoy"

In part yes. I love the feeling of being dominated by a beautiful woman.
I've always been interested in fem dom and there's definite undertones of that in lap dancing.

"Suppose some research was produced that did meet the standards of objectivity and rigour you require, and demonstrated harm to women
Would you stop going to them then?"

I would look at what the harm was, whether it was serious and how it could dealt with.
I would then consider my position.

I take it if research showed the clubs were beneficial to society, you would all support them.

"I can't help but think that a sexuality based on Peter Stringfellow's business model is a bit tragic."

It works for me.

I closing. I would like to say that I don't think the women in the clubs fancy me. That is not what it's about.
Also - shock horror - I don't have a burning desire to get a girlfriend.
I like my life. I see lap dancing clubs as a celebration of desire and I will continue to celebrate.

When dealing with a reasonable person, in real life, it usually works to ask them how they would feel if their nan/mum/sister/daughter/cousin etc had to take up lap dancing to make a living. I have yet to meet someone who (having never thought about the acceptableness of these clubs) didn't recoil at the idea.

sinless....you're like a poor character on a Silent Witness episode.....you don't really like sex but you like watching....eeewww....you fit the profile of a dodgy dodgy person.

punter, weirdo, pervert.

Yes sinless, the lap dancing clubs are a celebration of desire. They are a celebration of your desire, of male desire. And of how that desire is so important that it must be met at all costs. The desire of women is irrelevant. Women's desire is only palatable when it is controlled and morphed into something that serves male desire. Women's sexuality is subsumed and distorted into what men want. That is damaging for men and for women. Do men who frequent lap dancing clubs actually have much idea about the desires and sexuality of women who are not being paid to display theirs through the prism of male desire? I doubt it. Do they care? I doubt it.

Sinless - as I stated above, the local NHS primary care trust, Rape Crisis, and the Bristol University Centre for Gender Violence Research all sent in consultation responses to Bristol City Council that set out reams of evidence as to how lap dancing clubs are harmful to all women and how they damage relationships between women and men. I copied and pasted some of the references into one of my earlier posts.

Do you consider the three organisations that I've mentioned above biased? These organisations are deeply concerned about the effect of lap dancing clubs. If they are convinced, and presented evidence to Bristol City Council to support their views, do you not think that there might, just might be something in the research that has convinced them?

I realise that it suits you for now to believe that lap dancing clubs are harmless. In which case, I wonder why you posted on here. Was it only to tell us to leave an industry alone that you gain pleasure from?

And from a personal point of view, I have gained a great deal of discomfort from lap dancing clubs. As I have written on other threads, it is not pleasant to have to listen to male fritnds/relatives/work colleagues all discussing the body parts of the strippers they saw the weekend before. It is not pleasant listening to married/attached men depersonalise a woman they paid to take her clothes off to a 'pussy' or a set of tits.

It was not pleasant for a friend of mine who, in her early 20s, had to go to Spearmint Rhino on a client night with her company and try to schmooze clients whilst they stared at topless women writhing around over her shoulder.

It was not pleasant for the many friends of mine who have had comments shouted at them by men waiting outside lap dancing clubs. Things like "get your tits out and save us a fiver". Very respectful behaviour. It was not fun for the friend of mine who was advised by the police to find an alternative way home from work after she complained about the repeated sexual harrassment she received whilst waiting at the bus stop outside of work (her work was there before the lap dancing club).

It is not pleasant to turn to the pages of the local newspaper and see huge banner adverts for a lap dancing club plastered all over the tv pages.

It is not pleasant for parents in Newquay to have to explain to their children what a (ahem) "gentlemen's club" is when they pass the huge signs or see the promotion girls shouting at men in the street, "wanna see some tits?"

However, as long as you are enjoying yourself, then that's all that matters.

It's not pleasant when people try to take away my freedom of choice.
Considering Bristol Council didn't accept the findings it suggests to me they weren't impressed.

Desire of women is important too.
Unfortunately many people seem to think that because women don't pay to watch men take their clothes off that men shouldn't be allowed to watch women take their clothes off.

Wherever men and women differ, feminism treats women's behaviour as the default standard. Therefore men's freedom should be reduced.

I'm fighting for my freedom as a man.

Rape Crisis - radical feminists.

Bristol University Centre for Gender Violence Research - probabably ditto.

local NHS primary care trust - probably taken in by the nonsense spouted by the above mentioned.

So you honestly think that Bristol City Council actually bothered to read all the evidence that was presented to them? Sorry, I'll have stopped laughing in a minute!

Of course they didn't! And do you think they want to hear that lap dancing clubs cause harm? It's like you really - if they actually realise that they can't keep pretending that there's no harm caused, they might have to do something about it.

So your view of all the evidence that was listed is that it's nonsense?

And why on earth do you think that a male public health director would waste his time writing a response to a consultation if he didn't think that there was harm caused? The public health director of the neighbouring primary care trust (also a man) is planning to respond to his local council's consultation as well. The harm caused by the objectification of women is something that is on every public health director's agenda.

Are you saying that you know better?

You have denounced the blog that I posted, written off the Lillith report, referred to all the reams of evidence that was quoted by 3 organisations (one of which is funded by taxpayer's - i.e. your - money) as nonsense and told us that all the girls who have ever danced for you have loved it.

Do you not think that I would like the freedom of choice to sit in work without listening to men discussing the "pussies" and the "tits" of the girls they saw at the weekend; to walk down the street without some morons shouting "get your tits out"; to read my local paper without having to look at huge adverts for lap dancing clubs; for children to be able to walk down the street without being exposed to the sex industry?

Or is your freedom of choice more important than women's?

And just to clarify - one of your original points was, don't ban, educate.

So we refer you to organisations which take the issue seriously; we refer to you reams of evidence which highlight the harm that lap dancing clubs can cause; we tell you about personal experiences which have been intimidating and made us feel uncomfortable.

But none of this has any impact on your views at all. It's all dismissed and you assert your "right" to freedom of choice.

If all the men who frequent lap dancing clubs are like you, how would you suggest we go about educating them? Or is that a way of derailing our efforts? We decide that, yes! Sinless is right! Don't ban them, educate the men! And then we spend our time setting out evidence in the hope that men like you will take notice and, of course, you won't because you believe all the evidence & experiences to be rubbish.

I think I might have to go back to plan A but thanks for your input.

If Rape Crisis are radical feminists it's because they above anyone know what they are talking about. Do your female friends confide in you about their experience of catcalling and sexual assault much?

I can't believe sinless is a real person, I cannot accept that anyone has his views.....got to be a wind up.

'Freedom to watch a woman take her clothes off' finished me off!!

great post Jess.

this is one of the threads where the person putting the opposite view actually does our cause more good than theirs because they serve as an example of what we are talking about.