"Little independent research on the impact of any equality group caused by lap dancing clubs" according to Bristol City Council

[JessinAvalon]

I am currently ploughing my way through the 119 page document that Bristol City Council have sent out in advance of the licensing committee meeting on Friday at which they'll be signing off the sex entertainment venue policy.

In it, they say:

"There is little independent research available on the types of activities that
would be regulated under this policy with regard to the potential for a
significant impact on any equality group."

This is despite consultation responses from the local NHS, which quoted the Home Office Sexualisation of Young People Review, Bristol University's Gender Violence Research Centre, Rape Crisis and a detailed response from Bristol Fawcett which referenced several academic papers.

Does 'independent research' only apply if you are a man???

I am speechless!

Personally as a human, a woman and a parent I find the whole sex industry is a blight on our fair city. Nothing lowers an area like a few sex workers or sex clubs. It is pretty bloody obvious that the sort of idiot who frequents these establishments has a view of women that is beneath one that I would like. I would also think that the punter/LD client would allow his experiences to shade any future interaction with women, a group of testosterone charged men is unpleasant....so aptly shown on a recent 'Secret Millionaire changed my life show' where a group of intimidating men walk past a street worker and flash repeatedly shouting abuse at her. The statistics found by One25 about the number of these women that are raped, sometimes gang raped would make any sane person refuse any sex work/establishment without a thought.

Jess Have you contacted the One25 and their lovely philanthropist?

@ Posie - York are somewhat more enlightened than Bristol:

[http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/8623019.Lap_dancing_club_controls_tightened_up_in_York/?ref=mr here]]

ngclubcontrolstightenedupinYork/?ref=mr here

sorry, missed out a bracket the first time

third time lucky

The York approach is the same in Bristol. How the policy is applied in practice will show how willing councillors are to listen to residents and how much they understand of the industry.

What would have been enlightened would have been the adoption of a nil cap but I don't know of anywhere that has put this in its final policy yet.

"It is pretty bloody obvious that the sort of idiot who frequents these establishments has a view of women that is beneath one that I would like. I would also think that the punter/LD client would allow his experiences to shade any future interaction with women"

PURE PREDJUDICE

"What would have been enlightened would have been the adoption of a nil cap but I don't know of anywhere that has put this in its final policy yet."

What would be enlightened is for councils to
issue licenses for a LEGAL activity. If people disagree with that activity then they should make their case in society and try to change attitudes.
Using licensing to effectively BAN an activity which breaks no laws is repressive and should have no place in our society.

Why are you people so keen to ban? What's wrong with trying to change attitudes so people won't want to go to these clubs?
Or are you not so sure your arguments hold weight?

sinless....Are you really suggesting that a man that can pay for certain services from a woman may have a different view of women than a man who wouldn't consider such objectifying behaviour?

Evidence suggests that sex crime goes up in areas where sex establishments set up.

And God yeah I have prejudice over people that exploit others for their own personal gain.

The 'ban' argument......

Seatbelts....not wearing one is criminal, hence we all wear them.
Carseats for children...
Drink Driving.

Teehee sinless, the whole point of a licensiing process is to regulate where activities take place. They are only legal, if licensed. Like pubs for instance.

Am guffawing at your "pure prejudice" comment given that you have assumed that all the sources quoted are based on a piece of flawed research. Without, er, checking, this is a prejudiced assumption.

It's such a treat to have an alternative viewpoint on the MN feminist section. Such a refreshing change.

And, in the spirit of welcome, might I ask you what brought you to our humble online hangout, and this thread in particular?

Not that it'll make any difference but...

"If people disagree with that activity then they should make their case in society "

What do you think we're doing objecting to them being licensed?

I don't presume to know what sinless meant by '...make their case in society', but it does seem to me that this new legislation is being used to try and implement de facto prohibition at the local level.

Most of the arguments being presented surely apply at a national level - they are not nuanced or qualified by local concerns. If SEVs are as bad as we are being lead to believe, then they surely must be banned nationwide.

Such a proposal is unlikely to get enough political support, so I think the politicians in Westminster have simply fudged the issue and passed the buck to local councils.

JessinAvalon mentioned earlier that she was concerned about the democratic process not working properly. If anything, I think the parochial nature of local government will be beneficial to those that oppose SEVs.

The industry doesn't seem all that concerned about this new legislation though. I can find little in the way of industry objections - one or the trade associations was even saying that it wanted to be separately regulated. That said, there was something from Peter Stringfellow threatening to invoke the Human Rights Act if any of his licences were declined. Not sure whether that one would wash, but it does seem to set the tone.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out though. Stringfellow may be bluffing about the HRA, but there certainly is scope for legal challenge. This may be why some councils are being cautious.

"Teehee sinless, the whole point of a licensiing process is to regulate where activities take place."

Exactly so a nil cap goes against this by saying that they can't take place anywhere.
Prohibition, not licensing.

"I don't presume to know what sinless meant by '...make their case in society'

What I meant was e.g. The Black and White Minstrels used to be a popular TV show but people campaigned against it and such shows became less and less popular.
The show itself was not banned by law, people just changed attitudes.
There is a law banning "incitement to racial hatred" but there is no law against "racist" entertainment per se.

I can't see that lap dancing could be prosecuted as "incitement to sexual hatred", therefore a ban on allegedly sexist entertainment goes beyond the laws we have on race.Councils can act as judge and jury on what is acceptable at venues they do not own.

"Am guffawing at your "pure prejudice" comment given that you have assumed that all the sources quoted are based on a piece of flawed research. Without, er, checking, this is a prejudiced assumption."

Fair point.
I must point out though that Glasgow Council paid £7000 to Julie Bindel to produce a study on clubs, knowing that she would produce the result they wanted. This research is then quoted as authoritative by other organisations.
Hardly independent.

"Evidence suggests that sex crime goes up in areas where sex establishments set up."

For the love of God. Didn't you see my link?

"And, in the spirit of welcome, might I ask you what brought you to our humble online hangout, and this thread in particular?"

Just wanted to make a point about an issue that means a lot to me.
I have visited many lap dancing clubs since 1996. Must be well over 200 visits by now.

I know that immediately that means I will be seen as a bad person in some people's eyes but I don't think I am.

I believe, from my own experience, that there is far more respect between performers and customers than people assume.

Just thought I'd put another side to the argument.

Jeez, over 200 visits to lap dancing clubs since 1996?

Yuck.

What makes you think that they respect you? Because they tell you? And the fact that you're paying for them to talk to you doesn't have an impact on what they might say at all?

Here's an interesting link for you, Sinless.

www.oneangrygirl.net/these_women.htm

An extract:

First of all, if you are a male and you frequent strip clubs and use escorts, I want you to know that those women hate you.

If you've ever given money to a stripper, you've probably given money to a girl or woman who has spent the last 20 minutes laughing at you, either with the other girls or on the inside. You buy a lap dance and inside she's criticizing you, laughing at you, mocking you. She's mocking what you?re wearing, how you?re speaking and everything about you.

When a man would pay me to give him a lap dance I would spend the entire time internally laughing at his breath, his pimples, his fat belly, anything and everything I could. These women hate you, and no amount of money you can give them will make them like you any more.

She hates you and she hates all that you represent. She smiles because she must smile, she dances because she knows no other way, but she despises you and others like you.

"First of all, if you are a male and you frequent strip clubs and use escorts, I want you to know that those women hate you."

I expected you to come back with something better than that. It's all a bit cliched.
I can't prove it isn't true but I suspect it isn't.

Surely we can raise the debate higher than that?

So you're rubbishing the experience of someone who worked as a stripper now?

Please tell us how we would educate you-a self confessed connoisseur of lapdancing clubs-that you shouldn't patronise these places, which is your suggestion?

And sorry, I cannot help but feel repulsed by your proud usage of lapdancing clubs.

sinless6 - "I believe, from my own experience, that there is far more respect between performers and customers than people assume."

Respect? Really?

1. That may be the experience of one person but to generalise it to all strippers seems unreasonable.

2. Just make your points and I will listen. I am up for a reasonable discussion.
   I don't feel that cliches about all strippers hating their customers is very reasonable.

3. You're entitled to your views, but my last 15 years of lap dancing clubs has been wonderful.
   It's part of who I am and it makes me happy.

I even had an ex-dancer who danced for me in her own home.
I felt I got on well with her as a customer and a friend. I find it hard to believe she despised me.
But then if EVERY stripper hates their customers I suppose she must have.

"Respect? Really

Yes in my opinion I think that is true.