I am so shocked about that thread stating most women have no pubic hair

[roseability]

I don't know quite why it has disturbed me so much. Like most women I have plucked/shaved and groomed for many years of my life. However the thought of putting myself through that really upsets me for some reason. Not that I plan to. It is just that I have never, ever considered that pubic hair is undesirable. I can't help but relate it to women in porn with little or no pubic hair and it makes me sad to think girls and young women (I have a daughter) will no doubt feel insecure about their vagina and how it looks in this way.

I am by no means a good feminist. As I mentioned I do shave my legs and I wear make up. I have read Beauty and Misogyny by Sheila Jeffreys and I question why I even do this. However it makes me almost weep to think of my daughter being influenced in such a way.

I was just really upset by that thread and I m not sure why

[when I say fight for my natural births, I mean I had to go out of my way to make sure I didn't go to hospital, to avoid the cascade of intervention, etc]

Nooka, of course you are right - but when we point out that certain things are influenced by cultural conditioning we are in fact undermining the defining ideology of our time - that we are free individuals. Even more especially so that there is no longer any visible alternative to capitalist systems.

I teach this stuff and every year, without fail, one or more students will fall spectacularly out of their cot because questioning this is just so destabilising to their sense of self. And this reaction most often shows up as anger.

In the light of your recent marketing course you might be interested in the history of deBeers' marketing of the diamond as a symbol of love (ie for engagement rings).Very canny and well-orchestrated: and the end result is that people are dying...

"I know someone whose 15 year old daughter already had a boyfriend express disgust at her pubic region when he put his hand in her knickers. "

In my day (70s) a boy who got his hand down your knickers was GRATEFUL, and in no position to be critical.

Don't these boys have their own insecurities?Or any empathy? Perhaps I should be telling DD that if any boy criticises her appearance - in this or any other way, to tell him to take his little dick and fuck the fuck off.

Dittany - It makes me very sad but I have to admit you have a point. That self hatred can be intrinsic from an early age. Poor body image is an epidemic I fear.

I remember at 14 shaving my legs and upper lip with my step father's razor and cutting myself horrendously in the process. All because someone had made fun of my hair. I was told my hairy arms made me look like a monkey.

Whoever said these choices are not made in a vacuum was spot on. I can state categorically that if it was seen as sexually desirable and socially acceptable to have hairy faces and limbs then I would not put myself through the pain of plucking, waxing and shaving. I do it because it is expected of me and that expectation is dictated by cultural norms in the western world.

Yes some women probably do make this choice independent of any social pressure but I think a lot will be like me and learnt to hate their bodies from an early age. I do the bare minimum now and I am very hairy. I refuse to spend all the little free time I get removing hair (and believe me if I wanted to be hairless it would take a lot of pain and time), I would rather read or do a hobby that I enjoy.

I do draw the line at pubic hair and refuse to believe I am dirty because I have a lot of long dark pubic hair. I wash daily, do not smell and my dh has never complained about that area. It is like the last straw for me, that even a woman's vagina is subject to fashion and cultural images.

Oh and Spidermama I too walk around naked in front of my kids. My dd finds my pubic hair fascinating (calls it spiders!), I hope that it will show her that not all women have to look hairless and perfect.

I watch loads of porn and have never shaved my legs or my pubic hair so personally I dont think there is a link.

"If someone wants to come along and explain to me exactly where along the line my lack of genital hair had anything to do with porn, then fine, I'll concede that I was influenced."

People have explained it ad nauseum. In a nutshell, the argument goes that the porn culture has influenced every area of our lives, including fashion. Fashion influences us. You're at liberty to agree or disagree with that argument, but it's a bit trying to ignore the fact that the argument has been made at all.

I think people who get angry about having it pointed out that they, like everyone else, are influenced by fashion, the media, advertising, our culture, peer group pressure, etc., must have a very wobbly sense of self.

Why do you think it's a sign of weakness to be influenced by the world in which you live? It isn't, it's normal. It is not a criticism of anyone, to point out that they are influenced by the world they grow up in. It is incredible how self-righteous and angry people get, accusing feminists of calling everyone else stupid and weak, when in fact it's the people who are claiming that feminists are stupid and weak for acknowledging that culture influences us, who are being incredibly aggressive, shouty and strident here. Talk about transference.

Snowflake-that is your personal experience but with all due respect I think the link between female body image and porn has been drawn several times over on this thread. Can you see that although you personally might not be influenced that a whole generation of men and women are being?

How else would you explain the teenage boys who don't expect girls/women to have pubic hair now if it doesn't come from their porn consumption? I can't imagine it comes from their frequenting of art galleries, looking at sculptures, which is apparently where Ruskin got his idea about pubic hair and women's lack of it from.

I think each to their own - but I struggle to understand how anyone can deal with the 'upkeep'?

Surely regular shaving 'all over' down there is going to make the skin all prickly, sore & horrible? I can't believe that many people are either scratching themselves stupid constantly or going for a wax every fortnight??

Snowflake - my nan smoked 20 fags a day and lived until she was 98, so I think there's no link between fags and bad health.

Or maybe it might be an idea to access more reliable evidence, than just my personal experience (or my nan's).

Do tell Riven - what did they say, out of interest?

Yes, I'm intrigued what did your teens say?

Not to put words in your mouth, Riven, but my money is on 'Eeew mum I KNOW - I'm going out' Stomp stomp.

opps

x posts. I should've given your lads more credit than what I was due at that age.

Thanks Riven. I have a ds, so will take this on board.

Soz havent read thread I have just read OP.

I wont let my daughter shave her legs/pubes just like I didnt/dont. Parents have the most influence ime. I think if you do these things it is because it is easy to market things to gullible people. My best friend is 18 and most of my friends are 18 -23 bracket. (I am 26 but look the youngest so hang around in a predominantly young group). I dont know any that feel this way about pubic hair.

'Ds1 thinks the hair free, over made up look, with fake tan, make up, false anything is off putting and prefers natural women.'

Yep I agree most young lads think this.

I think openess is the key Riven as you said.

One of the niches (sp.) in porn is of women having really hairy downstairs areas.

Is it worth it?

I once did have my bikini line waxed and it hurt like hell. I bled and itched for ages afterwards. It was also when I was 37 weeks pregnant because I was worried about what I looked like down below. I aggrivated my SPD getting on and off the table.

I once used hair removal cream on my upper lip and had a reaction. I had blisters and sores and a swollen lip for a week.

I have numerous scars and have cut myself a lot shaving my legs, usually because I am in a rush because I can't be bothered making time to do it carefully.

I have a mole in one armpit which is irritated from shaving over it every week.

It seems ridiculous and akin to wobbling around in high heels which damage your feet

I have to pluck my eyebrows weekly, my eyes weep and I sneeze as the hairs are thick and stubborn.

Yesterday night I was also wondering why that thread upset/disturbed me so much... I also like wearing make-up (from time to time, could not cope with it daily). I have removed my hair from upper lip, under arms and legs since I was 13 (very dark hair, really bothers me). I have removed my hair in winter, with or without partner, nothing to do with an image for others..

So why pubic hair is different (I also do the bikini line)? I believe make-up and grooming has always been there, in many cultures for both men and women. Make-up and hair removal by itself is not (in my ignorant opinion) a big symbol of patriarchal oppression.

Whatever the feminist point is, my conclusion is that wearing make-up or hair removal is normally something you do when you start feeling as an adult, as someone with autonomy over your body to decide what to do with it. The total removal of pubic hair seems to go the opposite way and has sexual connotations (looking like a child re your genitalia). This is what feels 'wrong'.

Not sure I have managed to explain it