A male view on rape

[Grandhighpoohba]

Just found this and thought I would share.

Its refreshing how angry he is.

I ask my children what level of affection they wish to give to an adult. They are allowed a kiss on the cheek or hug or handshake, it is up to each of them...they are 8,7,4 and 2. I also ask my Ils not to kiss them on the lips.

yes but some of this is a bit cult-ish - he says that if any one disagrees with any part of his argument you should 'watch them closely from now on' i.e if you don't agree with me, you are a rapist - that's a bit much!

I think that women do sometimes fail to make things 100% clear - I know in my younger days I would choose nicer guys anyway, but I never said to a guy 'don't have sex with me' or 'I don't fancy have ing sex with you just snogging you' I suppose the message just got accross, but I do know female friends who were dying to have sex with guys but because they didn;t say, didn't get any, and also who didn't want any but sort of obliged because he did and were surprised when the guy said that he was doing it because he thought she wanted it - so it can be pretty unclear. By not actually saying and hoping guys guess that is in itself giveing all the control to guys, so I don't think this 'everything is mens' fault and even if they are wasted out of their brains they are still capable of making decisions and fully responsible and accountable for them, but when women are wasted out of their brains and make poor decisions they are treated as totally unaccountable and incapable - that idea that women are completely passive and not responsible for anything runs right through that argument - If I had got into bed with an utter twat who kept trying to finger me in the bar and on the way home when I didn't want it and who was threatening blokes around me who looked at me, I think I'd be pretty stupid to think my decision to take him home was without risk

Obliging = submission and submission isn't enthusiastic consent. I 'obliged' once with a now ex boyfriend and he knew perfectly well as afterwards he SAID "You didn't really want that did you?"

I'm older and wiser but I wasn't at the time but STILL HE KNEW. So, despite me NOT saying no, it wasn't ambiguous.

I don't think it's unreasonable to argue that a man who consistently expresses the view that men have an entitlement to sex with women, whether women want that sex or not, should be assumed to be unsafe to women.

Heroine the difference between a woman being unaccountable for her behaviour in the circumstances you describe and a man being unaccountable for it, is that a woman isn't penetrating a man's body without his consent, while a man is. Not penetrating someone, isn't the same as penetrating them. I don't really understand why there is any confusion about that.

I agree with HB. If a very drunk man kisses a woman, that does not mean she can take him home and peg him on the assumption that the kissing and lack of specific instruction on what he did/did not want is equivalent to consent. The women would morally be more responsible for that situation than the man.

no of course milly you're right, in the same way that not holding the door open for someone isn't an excuse for an allout nuclear attack- but that's not what I'm saying.

Then what are you saying? We're talking about acts that are either enjoyable or a tragic crime depending on whether or not a person consents. Using war as an analogue isn't shedding any light on your point.

Heroine....as dittany would say your thinking is misogynist. Rape is non consensual sex, not a misunderstanding, not an ambiguous thing at all.

it does depend on how you define rape - in surveys the definition 'any penetration at all including with fingers or tongue without express verbal or written permission' that means that most of my sex life would be classified as being raped.

Sorry, I should clarify my position here - I see spreading the idea that women are under threat all the time is part of a fear-based control system - women are by and large safer than men in almost any situation according to the stats, including those on rape, if you allow for the exaggeration in the questions used to produced the shock fawcett society stats. Many studies show that if you want a particular group to fail at any task you make them feel more vulnerable and more likely to fail.. and then fail they will. With sexual assault and rape, we have to be clear that often in this category is a guy trying to feel you up, and if every time I put my hand down the top of a man's trousers whilst snogging him, or woke him up with a BJ he accused me of sexual assault, because he hadn't given express permission, it would be riduculous. There has to be some responsibility that women should have for what happens to them, in the same way men are expected to be responsible.

I'm almost lost for words reading your last post, H.

Noone is spreading the word that women are under attack, perhaps you are confusing the overwhelming bias toward the rapist and not the victim here. Noone is saying that women should beware because every man is rapist, for a start most women blame themselves for sexual assault anyway and so you must consider that this is the starting position. Please feel free to link to stats that clearly state that most sexual assault is a man trying to feel you up, this is of course happening within a kiss to start with (according to your own logic) and not a casual grope.

But men aren't expected to take responsibility for being raped or assaulted. In every other area of life, it is generally agreed that victims of crime are not responsible, perpetrators are.

I think it is very dangerous to expect anyone to take responsibility for anyone else's behaviour except their own. Apart from children and adults who are deemed legally unable to take legal responsibility for their behaviour, because of learning difficulties, mental incapacity etc.

Surely as a responsible parent you are teaching your children that they have to take responsibility for their behaviour, actions and feelings Heroine? Why would you want to undermine that message in any way at all?