Teenage girls and feminism

[SleepingLion]

Another thread got me thinking about teenagers and domestic violence and feminism: I teach at secondary level and do worry about whether we do enough at this age to combat some of the attitudes I hear the girls and boys expressing - and some of the behaviour I see/hear about.

What I find concerning is that the girls I talk to express an active dislike of the word and concept 'feminist', saying that there is no need for feminism any more and that they would never describe themselves as one. They are scornful of feminists. Yet some of the incidents the school as a whole has had to deal with (Yr 9 girls sending photos of themselves to the older boys, with suggestion of some coercion, just one example) and some of the attitudes I have encountered in class suggest that we have a long way to go if current teenagers are to grow up with healthy attitudes towards themselves and the opposite sex.

What should we be doing?

Most girls (note I say girls, not women, myself being an exception) believe that feminists are not fighting for equality but superiority. As far as they're concerned (and indeed myself) women can work, or not work, have children, or not, vote or no, drive or not. THey may be in the no man's land of "what do feminists fight for?".

interesting.

DD (aged 23) was over for xmas day. I showed her this subject on MN. She was VERY intrested in the lies of pornography thread and said it made her see things differently.

i would be concerned if a teacher was teaching only one ideology.

i do think that there is an issue regarding sexual behaviour of both teenage sexes and i think this is down to a parenting issue.

whilst the govt ( no doubt) would address this issue ( if at all) in some bollocks waste of time class like PHSE, they should instead invest in the root of the problem - us - the parents provide us with parenting classes to guide us and help us to guide our children. they don't come with an instruction manual - if they did, mumsnet would be extinct

I teach English, so don't teach anything by way of ideology in that sense, but lots of issues come up as you can imagine. I tend to simply listen to what the students say rather than try to impose a view on them (although I don't let any misogyny/homophobia/racism, etc go unchallenged).

I think you have a point, FuturePM, that they don't think there is anything left that needs to be fought for - women, as far as they are concerned, can do anything men can. I remember reading an interview with Karen Whatshername who plays Amy Pond, the Dr. Who assistant, who said pretty much exactly that.

I don't think we have anything near equality yet, but even if we did, for me feminism is not primarily about equality for its own sake. The excessive focus on it being all about making women equal to men implies that men and their way of being and doing things is the gold standard we should all be aspiring to, and that's not the case IMO.

I heard a quote somewhere about 'equality feminism' being about giving women an equal share of the 'pie', whereas radical feminists want to bake a new pie :) I guess for me that's what feminism is about, thinking about ways we can change society rather than equality laws to try to cram women into a society that was created based on outdated and anti-feminist notions about gender. And of course that society might well be better and more liberating for many men as well, for example those who want to take an equal role in parenting.

I think you've got it - firstly it's the notion that feminism is "over" or unneeded (I certainly thought this) and not realising that feminism is a huge net which covers not only things like equal pay, equal opportunities etc, but also everyday things like expectations of women, attitudes towards rape, etc. Most teenage "feminists" I have come into contact with ARE arguing for the superiority of women and seem to have spectacularly missed the point, TBH.

But also - and this will depend largely on the girl of course - the teenage years have this huge pressure to fit in, to be cool, to be popular, you want the boys to like you, etc etc. And feminism just isn't "cool" - it's alternative, and not in a good way. It conjures up images of lentil-weaving, bra burning, saggy-boobed hairy lesbians, wanting to take over the world and eliminate men. Which of course is not what feminism is about at all.

I think the way to get through to young women and teenage girls who might think this way is to be more direct and a bit more subtle, and just put forward the view or argument or thinking/talking point, without mentioning feminism. If they find it interesting then they may well google it or explore further and then come across the online feminist movement and be inspired.

No, dittany, if a person thinks they aren't teaching an ideology it might be because they actually aren't teaching an ideology.

I teach literature and as a part of that, I discuss a whole range of ideologies with the students, depending on the text we are studying. I do not teach one particular ideology any more than I would teach one particular interpretation of a text - if nothing else, it would mean I wasn't doing my job very well since one of the criteria of the A Level specification is that the students are alert to different readings of a text, and by extension, different ideologies.

Bertie - yes, when we are studying particular texts and issues come up, the girls will be outraged about the inequality between the sexes; it's definitely the f-word that puts them off. I think you are right that they don't perceive it as sexy and cool. And of course, I still have to get over the hurdle that they are all insanely in love with Marlon Brando in A Streetcar Named Desire despite the fact that his character hits his wife and rapes his sister-in-law.

Riven, that's very insightful of your dd. Isn't there a famous quotation 'Feminism is the radical notion that women are people'? So sad that it still needs to be said!

I am another teacher who has been trying to actively work on these issues for the last few years. The estate I work on, for a number of reasons has a very sexist mindset and this has led to our school showing girls outperforming boys at KS3 but then being outperformed by boys at KS4 (thus bucking the national trend). The worrying thing is the sexualisation of these girls, and the importance they place on being admired by boys whose attitudes to women come directly from watching hardcore porn or male role models who treat their women-folk like shit. Any efforts I have put in to parenting classes aimed at girls, and involving their mothers have failed spectacularly through a lack of support from the mothers themselves. It is a very difficult cycle to break, particularly in areas of deprivation.

SleepingLion wrote - "I remember reading an interview with Karen Whatshername who plays Amy Pond, the Dr. Who assistant, who said pretty much exactly that."

I must have missed all those female Dr Whos.

at vesuvia's female Dr Whos!

Yes, and the fact that Amy Pond works as a kissogram thus allowing her to wear that police uniform with the tiny skirt while the Doctor wears his suit and bow tie is a clear statement of her equal status.

**Disclaimer - sorry, I started to rant - don't feel you have to read/respond!

Hello All,

I'm glad I've stumbled into the feminist region of mn.

I'm a teacher too, in my 2nd year of teaching. I wouldn't really have called myself 'feminist' before this term. But things have come to my attention this term.

This could be because I am pregnant this term, and have started really thinking about life & society from a new perspective.

Firstly, I have to echo several people who have mentioned the sexualisation of teenage girls at school. I am hugely frustrated with my year 11 girls who showed so much promise at the beginning of year 10, but who are now so involved in playing the 'ditzy' and 'bimbo' role their grades are suffering horribly. I've also seen some beautiful (I use the word to mean character, not aesthetics) year 7 girls go from fresh faced children to wearing thick layers of makeup. In less than a term, and they're still 11!

Secondly, I've increasingly noticed a very patriarchal undercurrent in the staff at the school. The kids have responded to me much better this term, since I am no longer 'new'. However, I started to get really frustrated when, each time I needed backup from a more senior member of staff, the only option is male. The student in question would (9 times out of 10) comply immediately for them.

Of course, I thought this was just a seniority thing (not concerned that most senior staff are male, women have babies and step off the ladder, fair enough). But one day I had 3 other female members of staff dismissed by errant students in addition to me, and the penny dropped.

I (stupidly) raised my issues with one of the 2 female members of senior staff, and the following monday was visited for an 'informal chat' and 'friendly advice' from the assistant principal and head of the behaviour unit on the matter (both male, of course). Basically, in raising the issue, I drew too much attention to myself and was made aware, indirectly and very cleverly, that doing so might put my job at risk.

How on earth are we supposed to be positive role models for girls in an institution like that?

And, presumably, my school is not that different to any other.

Sorry - that's a proper rant. It really got me down at the time. Disregard if you'd prefer!

put your job at risk for questioning whether the shcool should allow girls to wear makeup at 11 yars old?

no wonder this country is going to shit

with fuckwits wh have no common sense and the tories we are all screwed

My school has just appointed a female Deputy Head - one woman out of an SMT of five.

We have an inspection coming up.

I don't think the two are linked.

Hmmmm... ditto here in terms of the patriarchal set-up of the school and the ratio of male SMT to female. We have now got a 'pastoral leader' for each year group who do call-out/isolation/restorative practice. They are all ex professional or semi pro footballers (our school is/was a sports college)and have no qualifications. They are also all young men, even though they are dealing with a 50:50 split of girls to boys. It exacerbates the sexualisation of the teenage girls (a local footballer, only a few years older?!) and does nothing to support us teachers. In fact this looks to all be changing with the White Paper and the removal of the specialised school status, along with some of the other idiotic decisions made over the last few years. But still...

travis that sounds ridiculous. What are they playing at?

I'm sure I remember hearing somewhere that women can and do play football these days!

What should we be doing?

We should be treating sexism with the same social disapprobation as racism. Particularly in schools.

At the moment, all the other "isms" are not allowed. There are - on paper at least - very strict policies about homophobia, racism, etc. Sexism is very rarely mentioned as a phenomenon. You sometimes get mention of "gender discrimination" in school anti-bullying policies, but sexism is not mentioned directly.

And of course, incidences of racism are so serious that they have to be reported to the LEA. Incidences of sexism on the other hand, are treated as part of normal life.

well im 22 and feel very much a feminist, always have really.
But I'm around a lot of older people who have that attitude that "the wars been won" too, so i think its more about the individuals maybe than specific age groups? i think sexisms as rife in the workplace as any schools, just obviously people control themselves/are more conscious of what they say at work compared to a school

I was warmed the other day when a 20 year old child care worker asked me how to join the local feminist network, she's fervently against the new Hooters and wants to get involved. I though the recent student protests would have been a great time to recruit, actually. In addition to this what feminists are going to catch the eye of the young women?