The Times today,article on gender neutral parenting.

[TheTimesMNer]

Thought you may be interested!!!

I read an interesting book - Pink brain, blue brain. It concluded that very young children's toy choices were one of the few gender differences that there was reasonable evidence was innate - but that to infer from that that men are innately better at maths or can't look after children is bollocks (I paraphrase).

It also points out how children of around 7 years old like to put things firmly into categories and 'police' gender stereotypes much more than adults. And makes the point as well about children seeing it as more acceptable for girls to play with boys' toys than vice versa (implying the difference in status is already understood at a young age).

Isn't: the male chimps also carried the sticks, just for less time overall

Interesting, thank you anastasia.

The male = violence link is in there, as well.

The article itself hedges its bets on whether the stick carrying behaviour is down to nature or nurture.

It's all very interesting. I love reading about this sort of thing until teh results are used to say "WOMEN stay at home and have babies it is your destiny! Don't try and do SUMS what are you thinking they are for MEN!!!" etc etc etc

I like the part where it says (paraphrased) 'the girl chimps weren't copying their mothers because the mothers didn't play with sticks'

head hits desk

noooooo because the mothers carried babies and the infants pretended the sticks were babies....

snowflake - I've noticed this at ds's nursery. I think there's far more freedom there for the children to play with what they want than there (necessarily) would be at home.

I know a few parents (of both sexes) who are very disparaging about the idea of their boy having something pink, or having a doll.

It's interesting about the pink and sparkly thing. I wonder if children of both genders aren't just attracted to bright, sparkly things. Why wouldn't you be? Maybe "pink stinks" is looking at things the wrong way. Maybe we should be coming down on the idea that pink, sparkly fairy twee rubbish is for girls.

Btw, I'm not being serious about Pink Stinks - I fully support it - but the girls stuff = pink = inferior is interesting. Pink should be gender neutral and then up to the child to decide whether he/she wants it or not.

This is where I get caught in a feedback loop suzi. Unfortunately I was brought up very much in the vein that "boys" things were better - and it's a bit of a trap and one it's easy for feminists to fall into.

So for eg I did sciences at school - but my parents and school were quite high achieving so lots of girls did "boys" things. Meanwhile being extremely disparaging about "girls" subjects and things.

So I have bought into the idea that "girls" things are crap. But that's not fair is it, they are fine, it's society that says they are crap as girls are crap IYSWIM.

So when DD wants pink sparkly ballet and hairstyling things I grit my teeth and smile. Meanwhile I know that if she does swallow the pink sparkly thing whole it might limit her horizons.

It's all a bit complicated.

anastasia yes that was funny

When I say easy for feminists to fall into I mean that for someone like me, a self identified feminist, I didn't identify the inherent sexism in my ideas that "girls" things were somehow inferior - which is about as sexist as you can get.

Its interesting that you say that ISNT. As I said I work with children and it is usually women that think that it is beneath them, subservient,inferior, for thick girls etc. I have heard plenty of comments like that from women but never from men.

I think a lot of girls get pushed in to doing something 'better' for instance I wanted to work with babies and very young children when I left school but I joined the military instead to prove that I wasnt thick or stupid. I left to go and do what I wanted in the first place.

Yes that's exactly what I mean snowflake. Of course caring for children is extremely important for society and for everybody, it is a skill that not everyone has, it is hard work etc etc. But because caring is traditionally "women's work" it is undervalued and underpaid, there is little or no status in caring roles. So they are seen as crap.

That's your sexist society in action really.

And it is a trap for women in more ways than one. Aside from the low status/low pay side. A woman who decides to do something to "prove they are better" as you did is seen in general as doing something unusual - thus reinforcing the stereotype. Meanwhile if they decide to do something traditionally female - like childcare - then they are also reinforcing the stereotype.

So you can't win really. Whatever women do is held up as proof that really they should be doing the stereotypical stuff.

The thing is though ISNT it was my mum that said it was for not very educated girls and my female career advisor told me I was better than that and it is a brain dead profession . This was in 1999. I have never had a man tell me it isnt a valid career or career choice.

I dont care about pay or status I just did what they wanted so they wouldnt think I was stupid. It was just a case of women trying to prove points to men who didnt even care. I know my husband doesnt as he thinks my job is really important. Thats why I am happy for my daughter to do whatever she wants even if that is dress all in pink, dress as a fairy or do something as dumb as want to work with children

Because the world needs more violent men, TBBE, of course. Durrbrain.

DP? (incognito regular, conference attendee)

snowflake I don't think that women do things to prove things to men - they normally do things to get higher earning power or status or because they simply want to. When proving comes into it I think women do things mainly to prove to themselves or to overcome a stereotype. You are right that most individual men don't care, why would they? They don't give a monkeys about whether women work in childcare or not. What many of them do know though is that it isn't something they would ever do. And most men, when asked what a good job for a boy would be, don't come out with "childcare" as an answer.

It is a real shame that things aren't more mixed.

I know who you are timesmner

Daftpunk got banned, I wondered if Lenin knew. About time too IMO.

Anyway I don't want to derail this! So will stop there.

My husband has worked in childcare for a bit and now he is a trainee youth worker. He sees caring roles way more important than making money. He is a very special person though

I have worked with a few men in childcare and they have all been great. I joined the forces to prove my mum and that women wrong and for a tenner bet off my friend who said I couldnt do it! I am glad I did it but will not be making my children feel like they cant do whatever they want straight from leaving school.

As it says in the article, or not can't remmeber, my DH is far far more likely to cuddle our DCS and say I love you. His 'femininity' makes up for my 'masculinity.

As a child I had cars, a garage and was convinced I could do anything, my mother worked.

Why did DP get banned? I missed that.

I think snowflake69 makes a very good point. I don't think pink should be looked down on, and traditionally male things should be looked up to. I admire Barbara Cartland. She did what she wanted and didn't care whether Guardianistas laughed at her.

If we sneer so much at pink, isn't that anti feminist? Pink=feminine=crap?