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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Etiquette for beating your wife.

18 replies

msrisotto · 14/12/2010 20:06

www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2010/islam-how-to-beat-your-wife-p1.php

I do wonder how people like this get on T.V. They are the nutter fundamentalists right? There can't be many who believe this shit can there?

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LadyBlaBlah · 14/12/2010 20:13

Link won't work

breathtakingben · 14/12/2010 20:14

delete the space in "how- to"

msrisotto · 14/12/2010 20:17

Sorry

[[http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2010/islam-how-to-beat-your-wife-p1.php
]]

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AliceWorld · 14/12/2010 20:44

I assumed it was someone being 'witty' with the translation. I don't think it's what they are really saying.

More scary that someone thinks it's funny to caption like that on several levels.

Greythorne · 14/12/2010 20:55

link still doesn't work
or rather, it works but leads to "page not found"
?

LadyBlaBlah · 14/12/2010 21:17

Oh well, at least they don't agree with beating women around the face.

And at least they are only allowed to kick the shit out of women when they refuse sex. I mean, really, who could reasonably refuse sex with such a man - they must be insane

msrisotto · 14/12/2010 22:21

that's funny, it works when i click on it.

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thefinerthingsinlife · 14/12/2010 23:58

So the way i see it you have 2 choices; to be raped or to be beaten Angry

And this is deemed to be acceptable!!! Angry

scouserabroad · 15/12/2010 13:16

Aliceworld I'm fairly sure that the captions are accurate but my arabic isn't that good so maybe I'm mistaken?

I don't know how many people would agree with this - I know that when I have asked my (Muslim) Dh about it he just avoids the question. I think the problem is that the Quran can be interpreted as saying it's OK to beat your wife but Dh doesn't agree with that in theory, yet doesn't want to openly disagree with the Quran as it's the word of Allah.

The verse from the Quran which supposedly justifies wife beating is here: Sura an nisa, verse 34

The translation varies and I think some people argue that it doesn't justify wife beating at all.

scouserabroad · 15/12/2010 13:17

Oops that doesn't link to the right verse at all. Trying to fix the link.

scouserabroad · 15/12/2010 13:19

Can't get the link to work so here is a c&p:

Sura an-nisa, verse 34 from www.quranexplorer.com :

"Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great."

AliceWorld · 15/12/2010 14:38

Well my arabic will extends to a handful of words so I don't think it will get me through that one. Grin

Could be totally wrong, just looked like it from the source, but if you can understand it a bit then maybe I am.

alexpolismum · 15/12/2010 15:32

if that is an accurate translation, it is awful in many many ways.

"Men are in charge of women" need I elaborate on the problem with this?

"Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other" how exactly?

"they spend of their property (for the support of women)" not true for many women today, and not even true for Mohammad, who was reportedly supported for years by his businesswoman wife Khadija

"for those from whom ye fear rebellion" what??? so a man has only to fear rebellion??? And why should a woman feel like she is "rebelling" in any case, when all she is doing is behaving like an adult and exercising her own opinion or doing as she sees fit.

"banish them to beds apart" this will probably be a relief for the woman if it's a man whp thinks the rest of this is reasonable!

"scourge them" obviously I need no explanation of what's wrong with this.

scouserabroad · 15/12/2010 18:16

Aliceworld I'm not really confident about my arabic, especially as I understand the algerian dialect best and that video is from the Gulf I think? It just seems that the captions matches what they are saying. Maybe a real Arabic speaker would be useful here Grin

There are a few different translations of the Quran but the general gist of that verse is always the same I think.

I read somewhere (can't remember where, sorry!) that the arabic word for "scourge" can mean a few different things, including "verbally chastise" so it may not be condoning physical violence at all.

I think in quite a few Muslim cultures it is widely accepted that women need a man to look after them (be in charge), i.e they don't live alone.

I've never met anyone in real life who would openly say that it domestic violence is OK, because the Quran says so.

StuffingGoldBrass · 17/12/2010 00:52

SOrry, and you're surprised that a religion is promoting violence against women?
That's what they all do.

msrisotto · 17/12/2010 08:37

I don't know why i'm surprised actually. as you say, all religions do the same. I suppose i had thought none were quite so open about physical violence though.

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methodsandmaterials · 17/12/2010 13:26

Sadly, the Muslim world is full of uneducated misogynists, but I think it's important to separate the action of Muslims from the teachings of the Quran.

I've looked into what is written in al-Nisa (the chapter "condoning" domestic violence") and think that it's meaning has been grossly misrepresented.

As with so many things in the Quran, it comes down to the complexity of the Arabic language and the subsequent necessity for good translations.

There are two main points of confusion. The first is the word nushuz which in incorrectly translated as "rebellion". The more accurate translation would be "ill-treatment" or even "abuse / cruelty". Indeed, when it is used later on in the chapter to describe a man's behaviour towards his wife, it is translated thus.

The biggest point of contention regards the daraba which has been translated (by men) to mean "beat" or "strike". I'm pretty Hmm about this. The word is used over 50 times elsewhere in the Quran where it means a variety of things. In this context however, enlightened scholars agree that the most appropriate translation would be to "separate from". That would certainly make more sense, particularly particularly when you consider the spirit of the chapter.

So yes, I think it's very convenient (and sadly easy) for men to cite the Quran when justifying DV, but I'm afraid that the religion doesn't sanction it AT ALL.

alexpolismum · 18/12/2010 13:36

methodsandmaterials - I hope you are right that the word daraba does not mean 'to strike', however, I feel I should point out that a word having numerous other meanings does not preclude a basic meaning. Even in English, the verb 'to hit' (to use a similar meaning) can mean different things in different contexts - hit the road for example, or hit the jackpot or even be a hit with someone. However, we are all capable of understanding the meaning in the different contexts, and there is no doubt in anyone's mind that hit your wife means that quite literally.

If it were just a case of mistranslation into English, you might have a point, but I have checked the translation into other languages, and the meaning remains the same. Are all these translators making exactly the same mistake in all these different languages in exactly the same place in the Quran? Why should that be the case when they seem quite capable of making accurate translations elsewhere?

Still, as far as I can see, the relevant passage is still blantantly misogynist, even if it is not advising striking women - stating that men are in charge of women and excel them is hardly woman-friendly. Where is the passage in the Quran advising women on what they should do when they are ill-treated (to use your proposed translation)?

Finally, I think the argument about the complexity of the Arabic language is nonsense. Every language has its complexities, and there are always ways to translate them, even if you really have to spell it out. In English, which is actually a very rich lanaguage, full of its own complexities and nuances and plenty of vocabulary, deriving as it does from so many linguistic sources, there is actually plenty of scope for translating well and accurately.

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