Women only wear short skirts to attract men?

[ToyBoat]

This is what two different men have said to me recently - both men I respect (not any more!).

They don't believe me when I say I wear short skirts myself (with leggings) because I worked hard to get my legs slim, and I think I look attractive in them which is, IMO, completely different to saying that I want men to look at my legs and admire them.

It is different, isn't it? I admire women who look and dress attractively, but I don't fancy them.

Can we discuss this issue? I didn't argue my point very well because I was tired at the time, but I could do with some good soundbites to prove to these men that everything in life isn't just about sex and attracting a mate!

Hahahahahahahahaha! Does facial hair really mean that!? I have recieved cunnilingus from a man with a goatee, and I have to say I didn't notice that it made any difference!

But kissing someone with facial hair is horrid...and painful so basically they're saying 'I'd choose to kiss your fanjo over your face'

eww no way. I think the opposite when I see a man with facial hair I think it would be awful for them to be doing oral or kissing you. Its scratchy and vile.

Is it pleasurable to have a bearded man head south? I'm not sure I've ever had the pleasure...

I've seen plenty of thin men with goatee beards, so that's definitely not the reason for all wierdy-beardies.

And what's the excuse for a huge bush of a beard then? I always imagine (having never had the pleasure) that kissing someone with a big beard must be like giving cunnilingus.

Laziness
Being in a job that doesn't need you to be cleanshaven
Keeping warm & difficulty shaving eg long sailing trips, struggling across the arctic
Religion
Erm
That's it?

What about men with neat, busy beards (ie. they do maintain it so aren't lazy); aren't sailors; aren't religious? There is just no bloody excuse!

Sorry. I'm a bit confused. When are men allowed to look at women?

Not that I'm especially bothered. Just wondered for the sake of my DSs really?

I don't have a beard.

Strange question. I don't know what you're on about particularly BeenBeta but we were talking about how what we wear isn't necessarily worn with the intention of pulling men. You know, sometimes we just wear clothes.....without any intentions.....

Don't men know that they can look at women any time they like?

It is how they look that counts.

Its the whole business of the 'male gaze' that people are talking about that confuses me. I mean, what is it? I look at people and sometimes they wear short skirts. Should I not look at people in short skirts?

Here's an explanation of the male gaze

It a nutshell it's the idea that things are shaped by the way men see the world, so in this context what we wear is influenced by the way hetero men see us rather than how women do. And that the way we see ourselves is shaped by the way men see us, as popular culture is shaped by the way men see the world, rather than the way women do.

Its a difficult thing to put in a nutshell.

But it not to do with individual men looking at individual women per se.

Nor is it to do with individual women consciously thinking 'now what shall I wear so that men like it'.

It's more a concept.

Looking is not the problem.
Leering is.
Chatting up is not a problem.
Harrassing is.

In that context it doesn't matter if you wear a short skirt to attract men. You can attract every man on the street, but being attracted to a woman doesn't come with a set of entitlements.

Unless of course you're aged between about 14 and 25, and have something that is deemed attractive in the prevailing culture, then you can quite literally feel the male gaze on you every time you leave the house. Very unsettling.

Well I understand the 'buy the product, get the girl' nonsense in advertising. Honestly, its insulting to men. I do wonder why advertising executives continue to portray men as stupid slavering dogs who will buy anything with a woman attached to it.

As for the rest of the discussion here, all I can say is you are never going to stop people looking at the opposite sex and you just have to accept that. Its what gets us from one generation to the next.

Beenbeta, like I say, looking and hooking up isn't the problem at all. It's a lovely part of life, and neccessary. The trouble comes when some men assume - she's looking for male attention, that means she wants ME to comment, grope etc.

[shocked] at level of beardy prejudice...I like well groomed beards shows a man cares about his appearance as much as a man who shaves, I also like the rugged few days growth look I don't mind the bristly face..

I look at men - I love the summer that said I'm a married woman ...

No matter if we all wore sack-cloths and socks with sandals men and women would eye each other up...

Women dress the way they do for various reasons, sometimes fashion or peer-pressure maybe self-esteem or to attract a partner, could be comfort or to make a statement but no matter the reason ..some bloke will look at you

But for anyone to presume a women dress purely for men's gaze or attraction is flawed..

I can manage to look at attractive people without leering and making them feel uncomfortable perfectly easily. Why so many men are incapable of this is beyond me.

I really hate men who look you slowly up and down. It's just revolting.

I also used to hate the staring when i was young, and it makes me feel queasy when i see men leering at schoolgirls now. It's just so pervy.

"Well I understand the 'buy the product, get the girl' nonsense in advertising. Honestly, its insulting to men. I do wonder why advertising executives continue to portray men as stupid slavering dogs who will buy anything with a woman attached to it."

agree wholeheartedly.
I wish there were more normal men out there campaigning against this stuff instead of just the MRA types who see it as proof that men are in fact more oppressed than women.