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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

AIBU to think that the emphasis on "gender neutral" smacks of desperation

149 replies

Sakura · 22/11/2010 01:33

I'm halfway through Delusions of Gender and lots of things have begun to niggle me.

I get the feeling that the need for women to prove their brains are the same as mens is just as absurd as the mad patriarchal obsession with finding differences is male and female brains.

Neuroscience, evolutionary psychology are the most recent "proofs" that the system has conjured up in order to justify oppression and subordination of women

But the idea that we now have to prove male and female brains are the same, and that if girls and boys were just raised in a neutral environment then sexism would just dissappear, doesn't make sense to me. It would rather be like a black man writing a book proving that he is not, in fact, black. And that him not being actually black means that he should't be discriminated against.

But, well... racism was only invented in order to justify slavery. The trade along the Silk Road (Europe to China) proves that for centuries many races and religions lived side by side and traded equally. There was no inherent racism until it became necessary to justify slavery. That, you could say, was the root of the concept of race.

And it's the same with female oppression. The oppression and subordination comes first, the justifications come afterwards. Dispel the brain myths and they'll only think up another reason why women should be disenfranchised in economics and politics.
MEanwhile women have to expend lots of energy proving they are "just as good as men" or "can be just like men"

The truth is, from what i have seen, there is no evidence, one way or another, about how brains work, but even if there were dramatic differences between male and female brains, on what basis would that be a justification for patriarchy? The truth is, there is no justification, and feminists should bear that in mind.

I think women giving up make-up and beauty practices en masse would do a lot for equality, and in the way women are perceived by society (but it'd have to be a mass movement, because it'd be very difficult to do alone- I am not brave enough, that's for sure)

I also think another 'solution for the revolution' would be for women to simply stop working, like the women in FInland did 50 years ago. The country ground to a halt for a day and men were forced to sit up and listen to their demands. NO cleaners, no carers, no bum-wipers, no supermarket check-outs, no Macdonalds cashiers...

Also, one of her chapters is incorrect AFAICS. SHe talks of female children who were of ambiguous sex at birth who are then raised as girls, but continue to show an interest in boys' toys. She doesn't mention the chromozomes. If the children are chromozomally male, then that could be why they are interested in boys' toys, which disproves her own hypothesis.

Either way, I personally don't think any of this matters. men are always going to find reasons to keep women down and 'brain differences' is just the latest in a long line of justifications.

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dittany · 22/11/2010 14:17

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LadyBlaBlah · 22/11/2010 14:19

Just quit your personal nit picking with me Dittany.

You are very wrong insinuating that I think women should give up their wombs to machines.

dittany · 22/11/2010 14:21

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StewieGriffinsMom · 22/11/2010 14:25

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Sakura · 22/11/2010 14:28

But how can you compare giving birth to anything else that human beings do? That's why men need to build and make things. To compensate for their lack, their inability to create life, the ultimate creative act.

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Beachcomber · 22/11/2010 14:29

www.jackyfleming.co.uk/cartoon.php?gall=&p=9

This one is good too. They come from a thread that Takver started.

Sakura · 22/11/2010 14:32

lol, that looked like the EXPO in CHina, minus the woman

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Sakura · 22/11/2010 14:34

but I agree entirely with your first paragraph StewieGriffinsMom

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StewieGriffinsMom · 22/11/2010 14:35

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Ormirian · 22/11/2010 14:37

Love the cartoons Grin

CommanderDrool · 22/11/2010 14:38

Sakura
I have just read a review of 'Delusions of Gender,' by Simon Baron Cohen who comes in for some criticism in her book.

I found his points quite persuasive. His points are that this is a book with an agenda; to show that any sex difference in humans can be made to vanish by manipulating a social-psychological variable - ie making women confident of performing well on a test means it is more likely they will outperfrom expectations.

But his argument is that showing a manipulation of social variables changes behaviour does not prove that it was those very social variables that cause spontaneous sex differences in the first place - just because aspirin removes a headache doesn't mean the headache is caused by lack of aspirin.

He also says that is ludicrous to use sexist factors in society (or parents) explain why autism affects boys more often than girls and she cannot explain why left handedness is more common in boys than girls.

he also has some interesting things to say about fetal testsoterone levels but have to get kids from school

Sakura · 22/11/2010 14:39

SGM, I mean look at the pyramids. Lots of human beings died. MEn seem to have this drive to destroy nature in order make ridiculous, phallic buildings. If women were in charge I doubt we would prioritize some of the silliness that men seem to.

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Sakura · 22/11/2010 14:40

thanks, commander.

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dittany · 22/11/2010 14:42

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StewieGriffinsMom · 22/11/2010 14:42

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LadyBlaBlah · 22/11/2010 14:44

The evidence for in utero androgen exposure is quite staggering. Goes back to dealing with differences rather than denying and / or ignoring.

Ormirian · 22/11/2010 14:47

Well yes. Graves has an interesting interpretation of the Golden Fleece myth which implies that the theft of the Fleece was an metaphor for the theft of power from the ancient Goddess religions by patriarchal ones.

Sakura · 22/11/2010 14:51

Oh I know,in Delusions of Gender there's nasty a religious quote emphasizing that "WOman is of man; Man is not of woman"

Err... actually it's the other way round, but well done for convincing people for millenia that humans come from males Hmm

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Sakura · 22/11/2010 14:52

SGM, I don't think birth is the most creative thing women can do. It's the ultimate creative act.
Women can create art in earthly ways, just like men. But men cannot create life. This makes the patriarchy's blood boil

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dittany · 22/11/2010 14:55

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Beachcomber · 22/11/2010 14:57

Gosh wouldn't it turn out to be a huge irony if the whole patriarchal system was just about men acting out their sense of insecurity and inadequacy because they don't have wombs - wouldn't that be the perfect opportunity for some fundamental woman blaming!

"You wimmin with your wombs, your the ones that made us do it..."

Sakura · 22/11/2010 14:57

no, never read her. She is quoted in Delusions of Gender, and looks interesting. I'll look her up, thanks

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Sakura · 22/11/2010 14:59

I think you've nailed it, beachcomber. What about Freud projecting that onto women? As if we've got penis envy. PMSL. Power and money envy, maybe (seeing as we had none) but penis envy. UNlikely.

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Beachcomber · 22/11/2010 15:06

Penises are of course practical for offering the choice of peeing both standing up and sitting down - don't think that's what Freud was on about though. Grin

I've got an idea in my head that this womb inadequacy thing is related to sexual violence but have to go out now so will try to put it into words later.

Ormirian · 22/11/2010 17:11

I have always thought a she-wee would be really useful.

Wink
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