What makes a man?

[TheFeministParent]

Just wondering as I keep trying to articulate masculinity or maleness and I really couldn't tell you anything about a man that makes him a man that doesn't make him sound (or me) like an anti feminist!

So I was thinking strong, safe, straight forward....

Darts too.
I think that's probably a hangover from the days when nice women didn't go to pubs and play, what was originally pub games.

the WPBSA basically bought the womens game and dismantled it. Many English women snooker players are in America playng pool, while the WPBSA are trying hard to get more (male) players interested. It's been a struggle since the end of tobacco sponsorship to get the money to keep the sport afloat but they just won't encourage women even though that would help the whole sport in general. They're too scared it'll mess up the rankings.

BTW I've had men throw cues at me, and hurl all kinds of abuse because I beat them. It really does upset them to be beaten "by a girl"

Yes even in a casual pub game men don't like being beaten by a female, especially a short blonde one

I used to love playing pool

This new snooker thing - with the boxing bloke changing the way some of the tournaments work - I thought that there would be a certain amount of "amateurs" in the big competition (the one at the crucible YKWIM) - if they qualify they're in - I thought that might mean some women getting in there? What do you think.

And that's one of the reasons men keep women out of sports jedi.

Because they fear the threat to their masculinity of being beaten by a girl.

Bless.

'one of the wierdest things mundanes do is, while being unfit themselves, get obsessive about watching other people doing sport'

I think the reason is that more men are interested in competition. Even if they are totally unfit, competition increases their testosterone levels and gets their adrenalin flowing.

I think there is a difference between the sexes that is not to do with socialisation. I am sure that there are far more men interested in something like trainspotting than women. Most if us couldn't understand the fascination, but to some people (and more often men) this is fascinating. I think it is something to do with categorising, collecting, controlling etc.

Claig: that's crap. There are differences between people but very, very little difference is solely down to gender. Most men do not, for instance, like trainspotting, but some women do.

Girls meanwhile are busy sitting at home with their sticker collections, their rubber collections, their dolly collections, putting them in order in different ways, and spending hours obsessively doing their hair and other endless grooming activities, or grooming their toys.

(Not all of them obv, but you get my drift).

Not that dissimilar really. Just one is directed outwards at "male things" like buses and trains, the other is directed towards girl-friendly things that are to do with pink and sparkles and staying safely at home.

Yes most men don't like it, and some women like it. But I think of all the people who do like it, the majority of men liking it is probably statistically significant. I chose trainspotting because it is such an unusual activity and is therefore interesting to look at.

Collecting is collecting is collecting. What people tend to collect depends on their gender and thus what direction they are pointed in when they are young / what their friends do / etc etc

Women and girls do collect things, honest.

Why is trainspotting unusual? I have trainspotters in the family I'll have you know Although it's not nearly as prevalent as it used to be, obviously the steam age was the height of trainspotting.

Yes you are right. Girls collect dolls etc. and there are women who collect prams obsessively. But I think (I may be wrong) that there are more obsessive collector types among men than women. I think it is to do with being social. I think there are more male outliers who are anti-social than female outliers. I think that is to do with nature.

a hero of mine - Allison Fisher who said herself she wasn't afforded the same respect as her male counterparts

LOL at women obsessively collecting prams.

I was blissfully unaware of that obession in my pre-mumsnet days.

I think trainspotting is unusual. I lived in Italy for a while, and the Italians couldn't understand trainspotting. I think it is because Italians are more socialised.

On average it may be that more men are "collectors" than women. It would be interesting to see how it is categorised (men tend to "collect" more obvious things).

But still at an individual level it all becomes rather meaningless - the similarities are much greater than the differences, even on average. And vast numbers of people behave in ways that are stereotypically "other".

Trainspotting is a social activity. Or at least it often is / can be. Same as any other activity.

How much do you know about trainspotting, claig?

You're not about to start on birders are you? Or trekkies?

With all that sport stuff I get the idea I do.

But it also makes me feel a bit sad that people think it is that gender specific. I mean I love sport, I love the fact that female European athletes were on the television. I love doing it as much as lots of males. Loads of my female friends do too.

So I don't think there is a big dissimilarity. If it's in the media it's just due to £ which is dependent on men watching it, not being fitter in general.

Yes lots of people behave stereotypically "other", but there are still trends and tendencies that created the stereotypes on average. We had a thread on driving a while back, and lots of posters said they didn't drive on motorways. We know that most crazy reckless drivers are young boy racers. They like driving like maniacs and take greater risks than young women. I don't think that is due to socialisation. The law tries to prevent them doing it, but they still do it.

But why isn't there £ in women watching it?

Because we're socialised out of it.

And often, because men have charge of the TV.

And for some reason, "men's" TV occasions are considered important. The FA cup is appointment TV for the couple and the whole group of friends. The X factor final is appointment TV only for the girlies.

IYSWIM

Also LOL @ "the italians don't get it so it must be weird"

So if trainspotting is down to being male, why did the Italian men not get it?

If Italians are more social, is this down to their innate Italian nature or a different culture?

If there are differences between Brits and Italians due to their different culture, making the latter more social, why would these same culturally determined differences not be seen between men and women?

Male and female difference due to possession of different genitals

Brit and Italian difference due to culture

Huh

I know nothing about trainspotting, fortunately . I agree it is social with the group of people that have a similar interest. Maybe it's not male/female, maybe it's to do with nationality. I don't think Italians understand the concept.

God we don't watch sport in this house. Except for some of the athletics, tennis, (female or male).

No I mean men aren't sportier, fitter or have better toned physiques. They are generally more likely to slump in front of the tv... perhaps while the woman is going for a run enjoying an endorphin rush!

I don't mind that women don't do the same, slump in front of the tv with alcohol, but I do mind if the perception exists that men are 'sportier' as a whole. Because I don't think they are.

Th3 Italians are more social due to culture.

There might be differences on average, that's true. It's a mistake to then say "boys and like this and girls are like that".

It is also far from conclusive whether average differences are due to innate differences or socialisation.

The fact that young men are more likely to write themselves off in a car crash than other groups is just as likely to be to do with socialisation as with genuine differences. If girls weren't raised to be "good" and boys weren't raised to be "risk takers" then maybe the difference in that very sad statistic wouldn't be there.