"What about the men that get raped?"

[thefinerthingsinlife]

Whilst talking about Reclaim the Night to a friend, a male asked what it was about I explained, he then questioned "what about all the men that get raped and are victims of domestic violence??" I explained to him that I think that only 3% of men are victims and the stats are roughly the same for Dv (i'm not a 100% that these stats).

He then said "I thought you believed men and women are equal therefore Reclaim should be about men victims too"

I didn't really know what to say to this so can someone give me some guidence

Thanks

Please note, in light of where this might be going, that I said 'exclusively feminine'.

I don't think we have to worry about society saying childcare is 'exclusively feminine'.

We are in the midst of a backlash, whereby men are using all their powers of privilege to take children away from mothers because of their "equal rights".

In the Times yesterday, I read a case where a 7 year old boy had been staying at his fathers overnight and had reported inappropriate sexual behaviour to her. The authorities accused her of lying and emotionally abusing the boy and said they would take the child away from her and place him with the father. WHen she heard that she ran away to Canada with him, but was forced to return. She said it was the last straw after being failed at every turn by the people supposed to help her. Eventually, in court, a jury of 4 men and 3 women found her guilty of emotional abuse. Her child has been placed with the father.
This is the norm. Patriarchy's all over the world have never acknowledged mother-rights to children, although recently, some societies like Britain allow mothers to keep their children "in the best interest of the child"

her= the mother

Sakura,

I don't think we have to worry about society saying childcare is 'exclusively feminine'.

Neither do I, and I agree with you about the spandex clad pay-per-view loons. It was simply that having posted, and seeing your post on breastfeeding, I wanted to make it clear that whilst I would challenge some of the perceptions about appropriate roles, I was not arguing that men and women were the SAME in childcare.

I think this thread has become about two things - the reclaim the night event and the way that members of minorities should address criticism of their political lives to people who do not belong to that minority group.

I think that it is less about understanding what the motivations and feelings of the questioner are to understanding what the motivations and feelings of the person being questioned are. The OP has to decide what sort of answer she wants to give, if any at all. There is no answer that she is obliged to give.

Oh, get it now Adel Yes I agree. There seems to be some sort of hijacking of feminism whereby men are now saying their stake in child-rearing is equal to mothers' and it simply is not. This is not an are that I personally think women should give up as well unless men start handing over power in real terms. Otherwise women are going to find themselves disenfranchised in all areas of society as men push their way into female 'domains' without allowing women any traditional male power in the political, financial and medical institutions. It's a lose-lose situation for women.

Agree Milly, this is not about the questioner and finding the right answer for him. It's about how the OP feels herself.

Sakura,

Roles in childcaring, and the effects of generalising form individual experience, present a challenge and one I've never ridden comfortably. I have a male friend (genuine SAHP) who couldn't understand why someone saying 'he's as good as a mother' was different to someone saying of his partner at work 'she's as good as a man'. I can, but these things are not easy...

Agree with Milly, no reason why any response should be given. But why was the OP uncomfortable, was she genuinely challenged by the question or the fact it was being asked?

Yes, he's not "as good as a mother". He's a father and has a unique and special relationship with his child that a mother cannot have. Evidence shows the bond itself is different. Which is good news for fathers because while they cannot replace the mother, they have their own special role in the raising of children.

The workplace OTOH is not biology. It has been designed by and for men and favours male traits. Those who do very well in business have to be ruthless, even sociopathic in many cases (where exploitation of labour is involved). Male and female brains are different (that's why there's more male serial killers, for example). Obviously, not all men are like these ruthless ones, but those men rule and design the workplace, which rewards competition over cooperation.
I would say competition is a definitely a male trait and cooperation is more female, because of women's biology. There is no reason why workplaces (academia, politics etc) cannot be feminized. They are deliberately masculine, I feel.

Sakura

I think you and I might differ about the boundaries of parenting practice and gender-I've never really understood how or why my role is or should be any different to any non-birth mother.

But this isn't the plac e(either the thread or the site) to have that discussion, just a plea to any reading that if what follows is a series of 'men don't do x, y or z properly' comments I may get a little hurt if in our family I do these things.

But your site, just warn me in the opening sentence please.

Within the family itself and in terms of my kids, that is. How I get looked on and treated by other people when parenting is an entirely different matter,

that's not what I meant at all. I agree this is a very detailed discussion beyond the scope of this thread.
And my argument is most definitely not a "men don't do XYZ properly" argument, not at all.
I am making a statement about how men use their male privilege when it comes to women's spaces and child-rearing is increasingly becoming one of those areas in which they do so. We are coming out of a heyday of women's rights and are in a backlash right now whereby men use the judicial system and media to promote fatherhood and equality in ways to get at the mother. I see it everywhere. My point is that men can't quite become a mother. I speak from the experience of having been a child once, a child whose parents reversed gender roles. (dad was a SAHD for a while, but he never became my mother)

Sakura

Thank you, and yes again.

ShriekingHarpy

Why?

Actually, I'm coming round almost to the point of thinking that the OP's friend might not be such a knob and might just be ignorant. That's after reading some posts along the lines of 'Reclaim The Night' doesn;t automatically suggest women's issues. ANd while for a minute I thought OF COURSE IT DOES YOU COCKSUCKERS WHAT ABOUT THE YORKSHIRE POLICE EH? EH? and then I remembered how young a lot of you are. ANd that people who were not even born in the early 80s can't necessarily be blamed for not knowing that the roots of Reclaim The Night stem from the advice given to Yorkshire women (and later, and generally, to all women) that when there's a murderer roaming the streets, women should stay indoors after dark unless they can find a male protector.

Mind you I'm sort of ambivalent about the Reclaim the Night marches anyway. Because for decades I have been personally reclaiming the night - I live in London, I am longterm single and carefree - and have always been skint, therefore spent a lot of time bumbling home in the small hours on night buses on my own despite all the handwringing from my parents and various friends. Not much shit has happened to me. I do get a bit impatient with the way some ablebodied women are so wussy about being out alone after dark partly because I think that the more of us who do it, the safer the streets become.

Children being removed from the mother and given to the father is the norm? What utter rubbish.

There's a great history of RTN written by one of the women who organised the first RTN here

FGS just wrote great long post and it vanished.

Was saying that I agreed with SGB and that I went around for years in london and so did my friends, without mishap. The things that have happened to me have all been in situations which were not on the "list of things women must avoid or they are dooooooomed". That the fear that women feel is disproportionate to the risk, but the fear is strongly reinforced by society, media, family etc all the time. I am sure that many men have a healthy fear of mugging/assault, but it's not such a disproportionate fear and it doesn't restrict their movements in the same way. Interesting that. While no-one ever says to women that the best thing they can do is trust their instincts in "safe" situations, as that is where they are most at risk - wandering around at night being a lower risk activity. But no-one ever says that do they.

For me this protest is about freeing women from the fear of assault, as much as protesting about the actual assaults that happen IYSWIM.

I think it is important to change the judicial system as practically the only form of rape they will convict is this very narrow stranger danger definition and frankly if the woman is wearing a short skirt and has had a drink then there's no hope.

Yes I agree with Dittany, the reason that young men are overwhelmingly more likely to be assaulted on the streets at night, is because they are overwhelmingly more likely than any other demographic group to be on the streets at night. If women started to be on the streets in the numbers men are, those figures would level out and may well reverse. Pensioners are more likely to be attacked on the street in the daytime than at night - and that's because they don't go out at night.

The answer is to address the culture of violence, isn't it?

SGB - I'm ablebodied but wouldn't pit myself against someone a foot higher than me and 4 stone heavier. I'm pretty wussy that way.

The culture of misogynistic violence must be addressed, but also the notion that women somehow ask for rape. I think the RTN marches are an important statement that women do not go out at night asking to be raped or inviting unwelcome attention, that we are just out living our lives as we do in daylight, and as we have a right to.

I think SGB has a point in that the culture of fear which is rammed down women's throats by the media mus also be addressed by feminists.
The media teaches women that being out at night is scary and dangerous- not in the news but the films and dramas. THis culture of fear, it's literally brainwashing.
If women were out on the street in droves, they wouldn't be behaving like 'prey' to the predators.
Although it's certainly true that it's not irrational to feel afraid at night either.
I'm always blown away by the fact that rapists are usually someone known to the woman, as opposed to being a lone stranger at night, but it's the image of that lone stranger which is emphasized in the media, not your family friend or neighbour or husband as rapists.