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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

India Knight has changed her mind about lap dancing clubs

44 replies

sethstarkaddersmummyreturns · 24/10/2010 16:48

It's in the Sunday Times (which I still haven't cancelled Blush) so I can't link, but I thought you'd like to know.

she used to think they were empowering and liberated and stuff but now she has decided they're degrading.

she wouldn't ban them though, just put them in an out of town area so her 6 year old daughter doesn't have to see them.

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sarah293 · 24/10/2010 16:50

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msrisotto · 24/10/2010 16:52

Yeah i saw that, better than nothing in a broadsheet?

abr1de · 24/10/2010 16:54

Thank God she's become more sensible.

HalloweeseG · 24/10/2010 16:56

The Playboy club is returning to London next year.

There was one at 45 Park Lane from 1966 until 1981, when it had its gaming licences revoked; it was known as ?the hutch on the park?.

The new club will occupy different premises, although still in Mayfair ? it?s a supposedly classy kind of gent you get around there, you see ? and will include a cocktail bar, a disco and three casinos.

And, yes, adult women half dressed as rabbits.

?With Playboy now more popular than ever,? Hugh Hefner, the brand?s founder, said last week, ?I look forward to our return to London and again sharing the notions that are celebrated in the magazine ? the concept of good food and drink, pretty girls and exciting entertainment.? Hefner is 84, so we might forgive him the delusion that Playboy, both the magazine and the brand, is ?classy? in anything other than the Argos duvet cover sense.

My youngest sister, not what you would call Amish in her views, went away to university in 1998. In the three years she was gone, strip clubs were allowed to proliferate by the government. Having gone up and down Tottenham Court Road, in central London, since she was an infant, my sister was astonished to find that it now played host to Spearmint Rhino, a huge lap-dancing club, with blokes in suits lining up outside so that a stranger in a G-string could gyrate onto them until they were satisfied. Similar establishments were popping up all over the capital.

I remember her saying how bizarre this was and how I should write about it, but like many other people I was swept along by the novelty of the whole thing. I spouted the usual line about how no one was being forced, how the women were paid properly, how strip clubs had always existed and why should they be doomed to be in Soho basements with ill-looking girls and their dubious protectors?

I was taken to places such as Spearmint Rhino myself, feeling ? as a woman ? thrillingly modern, although it?s kind of hard to know how to compose your face when a male companion buys you a lap dance and all you want to do is ask the woman whether she waxes or shaves and how often and what about regrowth.

My take on all of this has always been: I like sex (and gambling); I don?t have as much of a problem with pornography as many women I know; I support the rights of sex workers both to exist and to work in safety; I think brothels should be legalised. I don?t shriek and run, gathering my petticoats, at the suggestion of people paying either for sex or for a simulated version of it. But neither do I love the idea of blokes in suits sitting by the stage in a state of excitement at four in the afternoon, with Nigel from accounts believing the woman grinding for him is uncontrollably aroused. However, it?s a free country. The male capacity for self-delusion is infinite, and there you go.

I?ve changed my mind over the past couple of years: I don?t think lap-dancing or strip clubs are harmless any more. I think they degrade everybody. All of the above views still hold, but now I feel women have been sold the most gigantic pup. The pup was this: that the idea of a strip club on every high street marked evolution; that the British had stopped being uptight about sex; that such clubs were fun, like going out to drink cocktails is fun; that anyone who disagreed was a ghastly old killjoy from grannyland. And then, most crazy: that this was good for women, so we had a duty not only to embrace it all, but also to be grateful for it ? that we emerged empowered, having reclaimed some aspect of our sexuality.

I object to explaining to my six-year-old daughter that taking your clothes off for money is a career option Well, that died a death soon enough. We became complicit in the pornification of our world ? and, worse, did so with a fixed ?ironic?, ?post-feminist? smile, even as we bleached our teeth and waxed everything off and contemplated hair extensions, even as we frowned at children?s T-shirts saying ?Porn star?, even as we trotted off to pole-dancing class or a burlesque night, pushing to the back of our minds the thought that burlesque was just stripping and there wasn?t much in it for us.

I see that sexuality is elastic, but I can?t say I?ve ever found myself turned on by a random woman removing her clothes for money. Fascinated the first couple of times, yes, but then I guess I?d have been fascinated by Victorian freak shows, or by a lion eating an antelope.

So here we are, some of us resolutely sticking to our guns, still intent on believing this is harmless progress, and some of us thinking, ?Good grief, how embarrassing to have ever thought that way.? I see there?s a nimbyness in my argument: I don?t object to strip clubs and their ilk per se (men are dorks, basically, and if women want to make money out of it, fine), but I object to them being situated near my house because I object to explaining to my six-year-old daughter that taking your clothes off for money is a career option.

I want them to be ghettoised ? clean, well lit, well monitored, safe, pleasant environments, but in a designated neck of the woods, as they are in Holland or Germany. Not next to Morrisons, thanks.

Playboy?s hope is clearly to tap into all this ? the irony, the post-feministness, the idea that cool, evolved women will have no problem with accompanying their boyfriends to a place where the drinks are served by women wearing ears and a tail. There was a brilliant line in the sublime television series Mad Men a few weeks ago when Peggy Olson, the lone woman creative, is waiting for a colleague to finish reading a porn mag so they can get on with some work. ?Stop looking at women who can?t look back at you,? she says.

In the series it is the mid-1960s. In the real world it?s 2010 and the women who can?t look back haven?t gone away ? even if they believe, naively, that their eyes are wide open. Some of them are so dehumanised they?re not even women; they are ?bunnies?. Does anyone seriously still believe this is okay? That it?s still fun? That we?re all chortling, roaring with empowerment? Because I don?t. I believe Hefner should hop off sharpish.

dittany · 24/10/2010 16:57

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HalloweeseG · 24/10/2010 16:57

The above is obviously c&p from the times.

sethstarkaddersmummyreturns · 24/10/2010 17:01

thanks Halloweese.
ok so she didn't actually say liberating - my mistake, sorry. But she did say empowering!

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dittany · 24/10/2010 17:02

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sarah293 · 24/10/2010 17:11

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Quattrocento · 24/10/2010 17:12

India Knight has her finger on the pulse, doesn't she? Or not rather.

The Playboy Empire is next to bankruptcy and Hugh Heffner's thoughts are utterly irrelevant.

But these lap-dancing clubs on the high street - who exactly wants them? Is it just the lonely and dispossessed blokes? Are there really enough of them to keep these places open? Really?

I just wish all the Nigels from accounts could meet nice girls, and not have to pay for some semi-prostitute to gyrate in his face.

dittany · 24/10/2010 17:17

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abr1de · 24/10/2010 17:25

'"We became complicit in the pornification of our world"

Some of us didn't India.'

Absolutely. Some of us have always thought it was a lousy way for a women to earn a living.

MrsClown · 24/10/2010 17:31

I am with dittany on that one. India may have sat back while it all happened but I certainly have not. Please go on the website for OBJECT. I am a member and we are doing all we can to change things. In the town where I live there are 2 strip joints, 1 opposite a church and 1 opposite a Women's Centre. If anyone thinks that is ok then in my opinion they need their heads looking at!!!! I agree with the comment that they should be ghettoised.

If anyone is interested please go on the OBJECT website. We are a great bunch and support each other. OBJECT have made some great strides re licensing laws and job centre plus. Have a look, join us. We are a human rights organisation.

sethstarkaddersmummyreturns · 24/10/2010 17:40

that 'we' drives me mad. It's like she's arrogating the right to speak for all of us, while arrogantly assuming her experience is the same as everyone else's.

but I am glad she's changed her mind.

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abr1de · 24/10/2010 17:48

Going to look at the website now.

JessinAvalon · 24/10/2010 17:48

Hello
I am a member of OBJECT and wholeheartedly agree with MrsClown - a great organisation.

As for The Sunday Times...I can't stand the paper. I used to buy it until the use of a semi-naked woman on the cover of every issue to sell anything from holidays in the Artic to cars started to bug me and I realised the paper is a slightly more upmarket version of The Sun (Rod Liddle, Jeremy Clarkson...).

Even India Knight started getting on my nerves. She seemed to change her mind about something every few months, depending on what mood she was in.

And with the lapdancing, I think it's great that she's finally realised that she has seen through the rhetoric and is self-aware enough to admit to it. However, I am slightly confused by her attitude to them - that they are basically dehumanising and degrading to everyone involved - and yet she would just like them moved elsewhere so that her daughter doesn't have to see them.

I used to think that there was maybe a place for them, somewhere out of town, where no-one would see them. Getting them off the high street was a priority for me. But now, after much reflection, I think that they just have no place in our society today. I don't want to see them anywhere, high street, in some out of town retail park, anywhere.

So does India fundamentally disagree with them or not? It seems she does but isn't quite willing to stick her neck out and admit to that and instead is disguising her stance by saying that she's trying to protect her daughter. That's all very admirable but it's not just her daughter who needs protecting but all women who live, near or pass through a lap dancing club, including those in work in them, and those who may be affected by the attitude engendered in the men who visit and who are able to treat women in the clubs like a piece of meat; a subservient object for them to consume.

Rant over!

dittany · 24/10/2010 18:17

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JessinAvalon · 24/10/2010 18:34

I do hope we follow Iceland on this.

I saw our draft SEV policy last week. Several responses were submitted with requests for a nil cap and with conditions for clubs if a nil cap wasn't adopted.

The draft policy contains absolutely NOTHING that we or any other group put it (except for perhaps the lap dancing club owners). It is shockingly vague and is hardly any different to what happens now.

Shouldn't expect anything else in Bristol though, sadly.

sethstarkaddersmummyreturns · 24/10/2010 18:37

Jess could you explain what a nil cap means please?

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dittany · 24/10/2010 18:44

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sethstarkaddersmummyreturns · 24/10/2010 18:46

I think SEV is sexual entertainment venues.

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JessinAvalon · 24/10/2010 18:47

It means that the council have deemed it inappropriate to have any lap dancing clubs in any ward in the area that the local authority covers.

Hackney's is seen to be the exemplar policy. They have proposed a nil cap in every ward.

Here is the policy.
Hackney's draft policy

See section 1.5.

The policy is currently out for consultation. We are hoping that this is adopted and then other councils will follow suit. I think many are worried that it's not legally enforceable but it is. Stringfellow has vowed to go to the European Court of Human Rights if nil caps are adopted as he is arguing for his human rights to buy and sell women in his clubs to sleazy men.

Richard Kemp, the deputy (?) chairman of the Local Government Association, has said "bring it on!"

If your local council is adopting the SEV legislation this year, the policy will probably be out for consultation at the moment. Worth checking out.

Don't bother looking at Bristol's. It's rubbish.

JessinAvalon · 24/10/2010 18:48

Bristol Fawcett has written a great consultation response to the lap dancing policy in Bristol. If anyone would like to see it, please pm me and I'll e-mail it to you. Don't think I can think to it but, if it is online anywhere, I'll post it.

JessinAvalon · 24/10/2010 18:49

"Think to it" was meant to say "link to it"!

JessinAvalon · 24/10/2010 18:50

Sorry - yes, sexual entertainment venue.

It was going to be "sexual encounter venue" but the previous government chickened out and watered it to down to sexual entertainment instead.