How is it possible for left wing men to defend female genital mutilation?

[HerBeatitude]

There's a good article here about Ken Livingstone's support for a leading proponent of FGM and some of the comments afterwards made me really pissed off - things like "think of the bigger picture, we need to get the tories out, stop attacking Ken"

In other words, women really aren't important, stop mithering and line up behind us, you can make the tea at the revolution comrade.

I'm beginning to think Tory men are more attractive than lefty ones, really I am. Am not sure if they are more likely to have pecs, but at least they talk bullshit about everything, not just about women.

Didn't a prominent feminist ... Gloria Steinem? defend FGM as a cultural thing? That was pretty shocking.

I'm not a leftist (whatever that may mean) but always had some regard for Ken. But if he can't see that some things are not 'cultural' but plain wrong he's blown it.

what an awful man, progressive? my god. i read an article about fgm about a months or so in the guardian. it actually made me cry.

progressive me arse. ken, sir what a wanker you are.

(though he's been known to not be averse to a little violence against women himself has he (alledgely))

sorry for grammar and typos in that post.

Could it be that these left wing men don't really believe in the policies that they expound? Could it be that they don't really care about the causes that they pretend to support? Could it be that the only thing they really care about is power? Could it be thatthey are just like Blair and the rest? Could it be that they believe that the end justifies the means, just as the left wing man, Stalin, did?

Is power the only thing that interests them? and is this why they think of the bigger picture only, the picture of power? Is this why the poster called RedFlagFlying, says

"think of the bigger picture, we need to get the Tories out, stop attacking Ken...
You should be burying stories like this, not showing the world any left wing mistakes."

Wouldn't RedFlagFlying have supported Stalin in exactly the same way, if Stalin had been running against Boris, for Mayor of London?

"he is saying the right of young girls not to be mutilated is culturally specific rather than universal and that, as FGM is part of some, mainly African, cultures, we should just accept it"

God it makes me so sad/angry.

Given the widespread misogyny that seems to abound in every walk of life, I don't think it's that surprising that some left wing men as well as right wing men exhibit it.

Someone mentioned that Gloria Steinem may have been in support of FGM. I don't think that is correct. This is from Wikipedia

"Steinem wrote the definitive article on female genital cutting that brought the practice into the American public's consciousness.[7]:292[57] In it she reports on the "75 million women suffering with the results of genital mutilation." According to Steinem, "The real reasons for genital mutilation can only be understood in the context of the patriarchy: men must control women's bodies as the means of production, and thus repress the independent power of women's sexuality."

I wasn't aware of that about Germaine Greer, but there is a BBC article on Germaine Greer's views
MPs attack Greer on female circumcision

FFS... I wonder if they'd be bothered if it were a cultural norm to castrate young boys? Probably not, to be honest. It's all "I'm alright, fuck everyone else" isn't it?

I think there are a few of them that really don't care, but they are in the minority. I think the other category fall into the trap that some left wing people fall into. I think that political correctness leads them to moral relativism, where they feel unable to make a moral judgement about what is good or bad and what is right or wrong. Everything has equal value, everyone, everything and every society is equal. I think that some people lack the firm foundation of a moral base that they feel able to support intellectually, and that is why they are swayed by the winds of fashion and political correctness and end up as moral relativists who support cultural norms that are harmful and morally wrong.

scratch a socialist, you'll find a fascist.

end of

there is an element of truth in that, as Hitler was a National Socialist. But Godwin's law prevents the mention of that.

There is a tradition of "We'll talk about equality after the revolution, love. Now be a good girl and get the tea on while us real people (men) talk about the issues that matter", isn't there? I'm sure addressing this issue would not be seen as a luxury if it were the other way round, but it's often a case of women and children last.

Slight hijack:

I work in a building with trade union educators, most of whom are absolutely great, but one of whom is the most sexist man I have ever met. He tries to offload any administrative jobs that come his way on the nearest woman and WILL NOT wash up his own crockery. I have nothing at all to do with the project he manages but he has tried to get me to do his photocopying more than once. And he often refers, without irony, to the struggle of the working man. Apparently the working woman doesn't appear on his radar, despite the fact that he is surrounded by them.

Ken would love him.

X-posted with Claig, to whom I say:

Right, early bath for you: invoking Godwin's law by stealth earns you the same penalty. Off you go

I know it's not politically correct to contravene Godwin's law and mention Herr H and socialism in the same breath

There is a long history of sexism among leftwing men. In fact most leftwing activist men are wankers - there is a massive amount of entitled self-righteousness that goes with the educated-lefty mindset.

It's not that, Claig, it's just bollocks.

TBH, I think SBSUB has got the discussion back on track: my mum's left wing feminist literature of the 1970s portrays the same attitudes then as now, except it was even worse then.

Maybe what outrages people is that on the left we expect people to have the interest of the many at heart, and get pissed of when it becomes apparent that for some, the many only include those with a y chromosome.

The left wing in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries were not exactly behind women's suffrage, because who was going to make the tea if everyone was out at meetings or campaigning?

I agree the left were sexist and some still are. In the early days, the unions didn't want to admit female members. They didn't treat women's interests seriously. They often still don't, as Caroline Flint's resignation letter to Gordon Brown showed

"Several of the women attending Cabinet - myself included - have been treated by you as little more than female window dressing,"

I even suspect that some of these people at the top don't believe a word they say and don't believe the left wing policies that they advocate. They will say and use anything if they think it will get them into power. We can see it with some of these ex-Trotskyists who support the Coalition and their cuts, and even Anthony Lynton, who supports the Coalition's cuts.

Some of them believe only in looking our for number one, as BelleDameAvecBroomstick said, "I'm alright, fuck everyone else"

Many boys are circumcised for cultural reasons.

IME it's far worse being sexually discriminated against by the sort of liberal self-righteous male who thinks he is an expert on anti-discrimination, because you will be silenced far more aggressively if you try and point it out, whereas with a right-wing non-pc type you will merely have the piss taken or be patronised.

who was that woman journalist or tv presenter recently who got into trouble for saying there misogynists at the BBC, and had to backtrack and apologise? (May have been Selina Scott?)

there is sexism on the left and right, though, I don't think we would get very far with trying to prove that one side is worse than the other - there are pros and cons to both.
Sometimes the old-school Tory chivalrous attitude to women, which is of course desperately patronising and sexist, can work more in women's favour than the supposed gender-blindness of those who are in fact prejudiced but don't admit it.
Politically how the parties treat women is a key issue but all we can do is judge them on what they actually do. By the time of the election I was sufficiently pissed off with Labour to feel they had no credibility as the party of women's rights, but I would be the first to admit the Tories have so far been pretty bloody awful. (am I the only person on here that feels sorry for Theresa May?)
Fingers crossed that Ed Miliband will notice that there are votes in all this womany stuff....

Lots of men (and women) are sexist. It's still largely acceptable in our culture. The editor of the Today programme didn't even get a rap over the knuckles when he said women weren't good enough to present his show, when he'd have been sacked for making that remark about Black people.

There are sexist men who are left wing and sexist men who are right wing. At least Labour as a party tries to do something about discrimination - both in terms of getting women elected and in policies that promote equality. Extended maternity leave, for one.

Btw, we still only have 25% female representation in parliament. Shocking in 2010.

Re. Ken L - he IS a sexist pig. Dh used to go to the same gym. One day the swimming pool was being used for aqua aerobics - mostly women. Ken turned up and refused to stay out of the pool, insisted on swimming lengths THROUGH the class, kicking anyone who he considered was in his way - including a pregnant woman. Evil little scrote.

Seth - I think the shadow cabinet is pretty much 50:50 male/female. While the coalition government couldn't be bothered to meet the legal requirement to carry out an equalities audit on the budget AND refused to reply to the Fawcett Society when they brought this up. And is making women pay 75% of the cuts they claim are necessary to deal with the financial crisis - caused, let's not forget, overwhelmingly by men. (Not that many women working in senior positions in the City.)

There may be sexists in both parties, but Labour's record is far better than the Tories. It was Labour who brought in the Sex Discrimination Act.

yes, like I say, Edam, pretty bloody awful.
I have hopes for Ed Miliband but we'll see if he keeps it up.

THe absolute worst are those middle class wiggas, you know the type: want to live in Notting Hill, go on and on about Bob Marley (and what a shining example of pro-feminist man that knobber was...) and think the Nation of Islam are wonderful too - can you tell I once had a huge ruck with a bloke like this?