Women who can't work because their partners earn 'too much'

[AnnieLobeseder]

This is a spin-off from the 'lucky not to have to work' thread.

There are endless discussions on childcare costs on MN, and this is a point I've argued endlessly, but I'd like to post it again here and see if I get any different responses from a more feminist viewpoint.

When I had 2 DDs under school age, I couldn't afford to work because childcare would have costed more than I earned, and because of DH's salary, our household income was too high to qualify for any sort of working tax credits or childcare help.

I am of the opinion that childcare benefits should NOT be linked to household income, but to individual income. Why should I be forced to not work simply because my partner, in theory, is able to support me? I found that very humiliating, debilitating and frustrating. I HATED being a SAHM.

Every time I ranted about this, I got two main responses:

1. Childcare costs are not just your responsibility, they're your DH's too so he should be paying, that means you can afford to work.

Um, no, if childcare outgoings due to me working are more than I bring in, we, as a family, are making a net loss, so that logic just doesn't fly. If you can afford to suck up that loss to keep your skills and work experience intact, great. We couldn't afford it.

2. You shouldn't have had children if you didn't want to pay for them. Why should we taxpayers shell out so you can work. You should be home looking after your children anyway.

Surely it would have made more financial sense for the government help with my childcare costs, even if it was just to the point of me breaking even, to enable me to be in the workplace, paying tax and contributing to the economy, rather than losing my employability at home?

Please discuss!

Posie - your tax example only works if no-one else can do the job. If a women leaves her well paid job, the tax revenue doesn't disappear - someone else steps in to the job and pays the tax. As long as the job still exists the tax still gets paid.

I'm shoocked that anyone would seriously suggest that well paid men should have to pay for his own children care.

LA...you're right, it was a rather off the cuff theory...

the original thread was about 'lucky' and i believe the original statement by the person the OP knew meant she was 'lucky to have a choice' rather than that 'not working' is lucky.

i don't think that i agree that childcare is the preserve of the mother's salary only. if the mother earns more nobody forces the father to be a SAHD against his will. or at least i've never heard of an instance of that.

a family is happiest when all members are happy and if that involves the mother working outside the home then either:
a) the family as a whole carries any cost this incurs
b) the father works less or different hours
c) the mother works less or different hours
or preferably
d) both father and mother adjust their hours to spend time caring for their offspring.

society should be supporting option (d) in my opinion rather than giving out money or messing wiht the price of childcare (afterall childcarers need to earn a living wage too)

What Starlight and skidoodly said. I agree 100%. You want the taxpayer to keep you in the same lifestyle you have now, so that makes you no better than someone who stays on benefits because they like the lifestyle on them.

Incidentally, if you were on benefits, or WTC even, you're assessed as a couple if you live with someone in a relationship. Not as an individual. Your award is linked to your total income as a couple unit.

So work evenings, nights, opposite shifts. DH and I have had to do that because we couldn't afford childcare and rent/food.

It's hard, but, well, tough shit. Want an easy life, don't have kids.

Starlight, we live in a TINY 2-bed back-to-back terraced house, have a 15 year old car, don't go on holidays, don't drink, never eat out... please please tell me how we could 'downsize' our lifestyle any more!

Please don't make assumptions about me or my luxury lifestyle.

What would your job? Is it v low paid?

Have you looked into all childcare options, esp childminders? Some are cheaper than others.

And I'll say it again, it's not about bored middle-class housewives, it's about skilled workers being forced out of the workplace (sometimes with permanent career damage), when they could be paying tax and contributing to the economy.

At risk of boring those who are reading the thread properly, I'm asking if if it wouldn't make more financial sense (and more long-term financial gain to the govt through higher long-term taxes paid) to keep anyone who wants to work, in work.

It's about taking benefits away from poor people and giving them to the rich.

Getting very frustrated now.... this discussion was going really well earlier, now it's just shouty and silly ranting against the middle class.

Oh FFS, I'm trying to have an intelligent debate about how to keep women in the workplace, not get into an 'I'm poorer than you, you don't know you're born' argument.

"Starlight, we live in a TINY 2-bed back-to-back terraced house, have a 15 year old car, don't go on holidays, don't drink, never eat out... please please tell me how we could 'downsize' our lifestyle any more!"

Where do you live that you can't afford a better house. Do you live somewhere super expensive like london or Surrey?

Our family income is about half of yours and we have a lovely house in Hertfordshire. Prehaps you need to relocate.

Childcare and housing costs are cheaper outside London. Your family would have a better quality of life and you would be able to work.

Yup, really tired, Surrey commuter belt without the matching London salaries.

Just want to remind everyone again that I do work, I'm not at home, I'm here trying to discuss this situation because I used to be in it and would like to find a solution for anyone else stuck like I was. I personally don't want the taxpayer to give me anything, in fact I am the taxpayer. OK?

Huh?

I've always disagreed with you Annie, and I think we've had this discussion at least 3 times!

There is a limited pot of money available for benefits, therefore it is paid to those who need it the most i.e. those who can't put food on the table, who can't work as they are unable to (due to disability or because they care for someone disabled).

What I don't understand is surely you knew your job wouldn't cover your childcare beforehand? Lots of people try and put a little extra aside before they have kids to cover this.

fwiw, I made a loss on my working (if I considered all childcare coming out of my salary, which I don't) for a while until I got promoted. I think a lot of people do but consider the longer term benefits of working. it did hit us hard, very hard, but we knew it was coming.

you are also v lucky that your childcare dropped when yours went to school - mine didn't at all. I still have to fund full time childcare for both and that won't drop till they are at secondary school!

I think my issue has always been that you wouldn't entertain any idea of downsizing or moving or something along those lines to adjust your outgoings which is what a lot of people do once they have kids to make sure what they earn can cover their outgoings (incl childcare).

Are you insinuating, Starlight, that when a women leaves a job for ML and can't afford to return, it doesn't matter because there's always someone else to take her place?

That seems wrong on any number of levels to me.

I WORK! IS NO-ONE LISTENING?

I don't need to move, or downsize, or look into alternative childcare arrangements, because I HAVE A JOB and am very happy right now, thank you!

I'm trying to discuss ways to keep people in work that don't involve them losing their house, career or self-respect.

Earlier posters were coming up with some great solutions, but for some reason this discussion has turned into a "Let's all flame obviously well-off middle class Annie cos she want to steal the lower-class' benefits so she's not bored".

Hardly cosntructive debate, is it?

So what made you get your job, annie? Did it pay more or did you find cheaper childcare?

Do you work in a low-paid job?

DD1 started school.

AH, ok. Makes a big difference.

What childcare do you use and how much is it perhour?