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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

is there a new cognitive dissonance thread?

577 replies

kickassangel · 27/09/2010 13:35

if so, please link, i can't find it.

if not, i'd like to add some things

using personal experience to prove a point is not a great argument. we have to start with the bigger picture, then see personal experiences as a case study which exemplifies, but does not prove a point.

i'm not even sure that i view myself as a feminist. i view myself as someone who believes in equality (not just on male/female issues). the generalisations about feminism being a religion i find offensive, as they both ignore the patriarchal society we live in (and this assertion can be backed up by endless statistics & experiences), and assume that one particular viewpoint is religious.

is marxism a religion? what about other schools of thought?

feminism is a broad range of thought, and there will be changes and shifts within the arguments, just as there are in other sociological concepts. and there will be women who abuse, just as there are men who do so.

however, look at the structure of society, and it is impossible to say that it isn't patriarchal. just look at the possession of wealth, the media representation of people, the male/female ration in positions of power.

if it was as simple as some women 'not bothering' to push themselves forward, there would still be enough women to fill 50% of all key positions in society, and to hold 50% of the wealth, but that isn't what happens. so, it sin't due to a lack of women exerting themselves, it is due to the inherent sexism within society.

OP posts:
Sakura · 02/10/2010 11:07

Blush that was an unecessary point, wasn't it

HerBeatitude · 02/10/2010 11:10

I LOVE that new slogan.

Grin
Beachcomber · 02/10/2010 11:17

The whole cultural stance on female sexuality is just one big contradiction.

We are portrayed as the 'gatekeepers' yet considered to be walking around in a default position of consent.

As has been said we're supposed to always hedge saying 'no' to not hurt others' feelings unless it comes to being raped where we are expected to shout 'NO,NO,NO,NO,NO,NO' (just in case he didn't hear the first time).

I truly believe the messages sent out by porn, strip clubs, the tolerance of prostitution do untold harm to women's status in society.

ESAWS is spot on - spread the word sisters.

chocolatestar · 02/10/2010 11:18

Your point about no means no HB is brilliant. We need something new now, some kind of true consent campaign.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 02/10/2010 11:27

Yes Means Yes seems to be along these lines.

larrygrylls · 02/10/2010 11:28

Elephants,

You posted the below (plus a blue face which does not copy well, in response to a teenage boy wearing a T shirt saying "I swear she was awake"

"ENM - and they say there's no rape culture eh?"

And yet this

"2) Your god-daughter's t-shirt seems a flirty phrase. She will be wearing it because she finds it funny, or likes the design, or likes to draw attention to herself. She will not be wearing it as a licence for anyone to do anything more than talk to her. Even if she were wearing a t-shirt that said "fuck me now" it is not actually the same as giving consent to anyone to have sex with her".

in response to my saying that women were contributing to the rape culture by wearing a t shirts with slogans like "I'm juicy, bite me"

And then there was the defense of the above t shirt on the next page (cannot copy without losing what I am saying) implying that it might mean literally bite or to be to a woman. I did not notice anyone saying the "I could havve sworn she was awake" T shirt might have been when he popped out to the shops in the morning and didn't take his front door key.

This is absolutely classic cognitive dissonance!

Two offensive t shirts. One worn by a teenage boy, one a teenage girl. Yet, one is somehow not offensive at all and the other contributes to the "rape culture"

You remind me of the odd anti semite I have met who does not like jews but does not want to believe they do not, so they always come up with "some of my best friends are jews.
They are still anti semites and you do not like men.

Sakura · 02/10/2010 11:39

that sounds promising Elephants, will order it

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 02/10/2010 11:40

Sorry larry I honestly can't be bothered to read your post, but suffice it to say (from the quick scan I have made of it):

  1. we're talking about something else now.

  2. I don't judge on gender but on behaviour.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 02/10/2010 11:42

Ok, I have read it

One t-shirt is about sex

The other is about rape

I urge you to get out your dictionary and try to learn the difference, and why perhaps I am more upset by one than the other.

No wonder you can't keep up with the discussion - without this distinction it must all be gobbledegook to you.

Sakura · 02/10/2010 11:44

elephants, he deliberately misunderstands to get people riled.

Beachcomber · 02/10/2010 11:46

Larry it would appear that you are out of your depth with feminism and rape culture really. Why are you looking so hard for evidence of men hating in our comments - is it so you can dismiss the whole thing lock, stock and barrel? I think it is hugely disrespectful on your part to insist with this ridiculous stereotype here. Did you read the speech I linked to by Dworkin? Did you follow the links from the rape culture article? Are you listening and trying to understand what feminists actually say?

The majority of people think of a sexual encounter 'joke' when they see the phrase "I could have sworn she was awake" - it is a long running witticism in our rape culture. One would have to be a half-wit not to know that.

Most people do not jump to the conclusion that this phrase refers to anything other than sex and it is just silly to say otherwise.

I agree with you that the fashion for objectifying statements on clothing is a dodgy one - however you might as well blame a woman for her own rape because she was wearing a short skirt. T-shirts like the one you mention contribute to the pornification of culture, along with much advertising, a lot of music videos, and many films. I see this as a cultural and societal phenomenon which needs to be dealt with as such - it is not the responsibility of our teenage girls.

If I saw a teenage boy wearing the T-shirt with the above awake slogan on it I would want to go and have a chat with him and explain why it was offensive (I would make a much harsher judgement on an adult) - I wouldn't hate him.

sethstarkaddersmum · 02/10/2010 12:22

OMFG @ the Johnny Vegas thing.

HerBeatitude · 02/10/2010 12:23

"Two offensive t shirts. One worn by a teenage boy, one a teenage girl. Yet, one is somehow not offensive at all and the other contributes to the "rape culture""

Ah Larry, so you are disingenuously trying to pretend that the slogan on the teenage boy's t-shirt doesn't refer to raping a woman? Oh-kay. And that a teenage girl wearing a sexually teasing message on her t-shirt is as offensive as a joke about rape? Oh-kay again. That tells us all how much seriousness we need to give to your posts and how much you understand about the basic issues around rape vs consensual sex.

And you are also still confused about the difference between the rape culture, in which rape is condoned and sniggered at and seen as not such a big deal unless you don't know the rapist and he beat you up at the same time, and the general "cheapening of consensual sex and pornification" culture?

It's an interesting distinction and one I'm quite happy to discuss if others would like to, but I'm not sure if you're serious about trying to tease out what the difference is. Because you appear to be implacably determined that they're one and the same thing. Which is slightly odd, but hey, I'm getting used to you.

Sakura · 02/10/2010 12:35

THat Johnny Vegas article Shock
Ugly on the inside as well as on the outside

HerBeatitude · 02/10/2010 12:38

But you know, there are so many of these smug white male mysogynist comedians at the moment. The only difference that they have to Jim Davidson, is that some of them are middle class and they don't tell racist jokes because that's socially unacceptable now.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 02/10/2010 12:52

Ricky Gervais is springing straight to mind.

HerBeatitude · 02/10/2010 12:56

David Baddiel
That other one who used to sit next to him on the sofa whose face is eminently punchable but whose name escapes me
Justin somebody or other
And why do all those panel comedy programmes still only have one or at the most 2 token women?
And we're all suppposed to have cognitive dissonance about them being funny... Hmm

Sakura · 02/10/2010 13:00

Haven't been in the UK for a while but Ricky Gervais was ok when I left. Has he gone downhill? Or was I applying a non-existant "irony and satire" to his sexist scenarios? Blush

Sakura · 02/10/2010 13:01

lol @ we're all supposed to have cognitive dissonance at them being funny.
Remember that League of Gentleman? HOw unfunny was that?

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 02/10/2010 13:03

That's it Sakura - we all assumed that David Brent was a joke at the expense of sexist slimy gits, but apparently it was an unwitting one as his later comedy and film work have shown. Do a search for him on the Shakesville website.

Oh YES I meant to post this last night: what rape culture?

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 02/10/2010 13:05

Here, with links to others

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 02/10/2010 13:07

and this, for instance

Sakura · 02/10/2010 13:07

OMG what an idiot . He fooled me. From Shakesville, and interview with RG

"[There's] Too many people who shouldn't have children."

Should we impose a limitation, then? "Yes, based on ... stupid, fat faces," he snarls. "If there's a woman in leggings, eating chips with a fag in her mouth, sterilise her."

kickassangel · 02/10/2010 14:31

.

OP posts:
StayFrosty · 02/10/2010 18:59

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