Should we apologise?

[orsinian]

When I left school, in the early 1980s, I worked for a while in West Germany, right at the height of the Cold War. At the time there were Europe-wide demos against Cruise and Pershing missiles. Whilst I worked in the country I came into contact with plenty of activists, and in due course (well actually quite a few years later) I started calling myself a feminist.

And in the course of the intervening years I've been pretty proud of the movement, with just a few exceptions (the SCUM manifesto for instance).

In the last few months though, particularly when talking to some new female students in Bradford, I'm finding the subject of one of the more embarrassing moments in history is coming up, more and more regularly, and it isn't referencing feminism in a positive fashion.

I'm writing about SRA - Satanic Ritual Abuse, from the late 1980s and 90s. It pretty much passed me by all that time ago, really 'cos I wasn't back in England until the mid-nineties.

But the subject won't go away, and I'm sick to death of hearing the accusation that feminism colluded with christian fundamentalism during the 'witch-hunt' years, and I'm really sick of hearing that idea from student historians and social scientists who are studying the subject in scary detail.

I don't want to start a thread about the existence or not of SRA-there's more than enough on the subject on the Web (try for instance 'feminists satanic ritual abuse' in Google).

No, what I want to ask is, how do we, a generation or two after the events of the 80s and 90s, get a line drawn under all of it? It had nothing to do with feminists of my age and those who followed.

In Germany, I remember that young Germans hated being associated with a generation who had made their mistakes 30-odd years ago previously. If mistakes were made during the SRA years, why should later feminists be expected to be associated with those errors?

I know its a distasteful subject, and I know it stirs emotions. If you think though it will remain just a background hum, then you will be sadly mistaken. The subject, judging by the stuff on the Web, isn't going to go away anytime soon.

I think "thought crime" is a bit harsh. "Taking the piss" is what we used to call it in my day

apologies Bigmouth, you are genuine.
Wrong thread to write "I never normally post on the feminist section"

Well I do have a fondness for Orwell - p'haps was harsh... maybe I should de-snark myself.

I write what I want where I want on tinternet Sakura - holds no fears for me just got to keep talking (that bigmouth of mine)

Yes, you're too harsh Bigmouth. Us feminists just call that sort of thing "taking the piss"

And I was agreeing that I was being harsh - I was as I said mystified initially by the tone of debate -it has been very helpfully clarified. I will go now as have things to do and being dragged by an insistent toddler who has been kindly entertaining herself.

Mommymeaghan, can I ask you a question, if you're still here?
You write 'as woman who call themselves feminist, it is our duty to protect the innocent.'

I am confused as to why you single out women or feminists in particular for this duty - surely as human beings we have a responsibility to protect the innocent? Why should this be a particular responsibility of women - is it not shared by men? And don't people who are not involved in feminism have this responsibility too? Surely it belongs to everyone?

What is it with all these americans?

I'm not "folk", and I don't have a congress-person.

I have no idea what happened in america with SRA in the 80s. Why would I? I imagine it was somewhat different from what happened here. Are we being expected to go away and study at length something that happened 30 years ago in a different country, in order to decide whether we (British women) need to apologise for it?

In the UK the response by the general public to the SRA allegations was "you what???? surely not... that can't be right" and guess what, it wasn't right. The social services departments involved in teh scandals were thoroughly investigated and (I believe) have apologised.

I find it hard to fathom when people from different countries come on and start expecting people to have extensive knowledge of the history, attitudes, political situations, how the public react, their views to politics religion etc etc of their country and then lambast them when they don't.

I live in England, I vaugely remember the SRA scandals, teh vast majority of people in the UK believe that the social services depts were to blame. When I say vast majority I mean all but a few loons. There is no-one in prison here AFAIK for their sexuality and if things like that are happening in the US then I suggest that you write to your congressperson, and maybe you could lobby them to abolish the death penalty while you're at it.

Ta.

Arse. I just know what's going to happen now - this thread having got itself high up on the Google list whenever someone searches SRA - there is going to be a howling influx of tinfoil hat wearers on both sides ie some will be telling us that Satanists really are eating babies in a maze of invisible underground tunnels along with their mates the Lizard Kings BUT THE TRUTH IS BEING COVERED UP, and then there will be some more popping in to say that all child abuse is a myth made up by feminazis.

And none of the fuckers will be able to spell, punctuate or write in paragraphs either.
Anyone got any gin?

ISNT - she doesn't expect us to know.

She just wants to hear only from people who do know:

"Would it be fair to expect folk to suddenly learn of a subject they know nothing, and then crack on with a debate over an apology."

Next time I think we should just all come on with a chorus of "Eh?"

Unbelievably rude IMO to post asking a question about whether we (feminists) should do something, and then refuse to explain the context. We are not thick, Orsinian, but it looks like you think we are.

lol!

"She just wants to hear only from people who do know" - er not sure what happened to that sentence.

I mean: "It's just that she only wishes to hear from those who are alread informed on the subject" :o

at gin

I have a deep suspicion of DavidStGubbins and of anyone who uses the term "thought crime". The only other time I've ever heard it used in my life was on another crazy thread we had on here.

OK. Look, if I say sorry now will that do?

The debate - did read (initially to me) as being quite controlling whether or not that is correct it is the impression I formed - maybe I was kneejerk and I accept that it is crass to use the term 'thought crime' so lightly and unsubtly.

It came from my mystified irritation, trying to unearth the subtext of a debate that I could not get to grips with. It is difficult to attain clarity and avoid upset on internet fora - which is why I have taken the 'put on rhinohide and blunder in' approach on this thread - which on reflection was the wrong one to use entirely.

'mystified irritation' is a great phrase though - and it is how a lot of us responded to the OP when we couldn't get answers to our questions, I think!

Well the OP seemed to say that feminists had a big hand in the unnecessary removal of children in the UK due to satanic abuse accusations. And that many people knew that feminists were to blame for it all, and wouldn't let it go. And that maybe feminists should therefore apologise for what happened so that feminism as a movement can move on from being associated with trumped up charges of SRA and removal of children.

The general response from me anyway was "eh?". On the basis that I had never heard that the unwarranted child removal was the fault of feminists, rather that is was the fault of social services departments. I think that is the general impression here, I have never heard anyone blame feminists for it. So the idea that we should apologise for it was met with , and requests for clarification were not answered. Then a lot of talk about what happened in the US - which is a different conversation and leaves me even more perplexed as to why women in teh UK should apologise IYSWIM.

So what did happen in america in the 80s and 90s with SRA allegations and the christian right? I can imagine that it was not pleasant (knowing what I know of the christian right in the US - which admittedly isn't much).