Let's talk about cognitive dissonance ...

[colditz]

My relationship with my children's father broke up because he lied about money and hit me, and I finally, after many years of misery, refused to tolerate it. But why did I tolerate it for as long as I did when I was miserable?

I believed that children need their parents to stay together and that I would not cope alone. The facts were that children do not need one parent to be abusing the other, and that my life would have been easier without him merrily fucking it up.

The stress caused by the gap between my own personal beliefs and the reality of my situation was causing an uncomfortable feeling, often described as cognitive dissonance.

Is this the reason that people who consider themselves fair minded nevertheless perpetuate an unfair system? Intelligent women who do all the housework and childcare 'because he goes to work' must see the difference between theirs and their husband's exhaustion levels - why do they accept it, and decide that 'going out to work is really hard' when they surely must remeber the time when they went out to work and had no home responsibilities as being a darned sight easier than the life they live now?

I think it's bcause cognitive dissonance is a very uncomfortable state of being, and if you cannot change your situation, you must change your way of thinking to bring it in line with your situation or suffer the misery of inner conflict.

Which brings me to the rejection of feminism.

Why do so many women reject feminism when it would clearly improve their lot to be treated fairly?

Is it because they cannot easily become fairly treated individuals, not without huge conflict and arguments in their home and at work, so they decide, unconsciously, to believe that they are already treated fairly? And therefore feminism is defunct in their minds.

Intersting.

Sunny: Please bear in mind that the fact you were lucky in having great parents and meeting a nice man are not actually a reflection on your cleverness or moral superiority to others. Shit happens to 'good people' too.
It's great that you have a lovely H and your parents were happily married, but it's not the same for everyone (women who grew up in abusive households often pick abusers for partners because it feels 'normal' and familier).

It's not harsh sunny, it's ignorant.

That's harsh.

Colditz, this is amazing, absolutely amazing.

The person I am talking about lives with parents who have a brilliant relationship and she has a brilliant relationship with then. She just loves this man cause she is attracted to him so she says it makes up for it. It is sometimes bad decisions.

'but it's not the same for everyone (women who grew up in abusive households often pick abusers for partners because it feels 'normal' and familier).'

It might not be the same for everyone but you are saying the majority of men think women shoudl do the 'shitwork' as such and think women are there to look after them. The majority dont and I dont think men need women more than vice versa we all need each other the same.

I know some people can have bad relationships due to difficult upbringings but there are women that do perpetuate the situation who havent come from that type of upbringing because they are blinded by love and a persons faults.

So basically then, Sunny, what you are saying is that women who end up in difficult/abusive relationships have only themslevs to blame? Is that correct?

And Malificance, is that what you are saying too? You have no sympathy with these women as it's their own fault?

Sunny, the fact is that although a majority of men and women say that domestic labour should be shared equally and most couples think they do split it equally, most don't.

In the book Wifework, the author talks of some researchers who tried to do a study into couples that split housework equally. They had to halt the research because they couldn't find enough such couples to make the study worthwhile. I thought that was quite revealing.

I am saying that some women and men when they get in to relationships it is their fault.I said I wasnt talking about DV and I cant go in to details on here about the relationship I am talking about but I can assure you she perpetuates it.

I am not talking about serious abusive situations but if you allow your husband not to help look after the kids or help in the home it is probably your fault for not setting the standard earlier. There are a lot of women that get martyr like about it. Some situations it is the womans fault for not saying, but again not all.

I agree with Mal its the biggest decision of your life so surely it makes sense to plan for years, ensure its right,make sure they do certain things etc. Most men and women arent abusers and the vast majority of men dont expect women to do all the 'shitwork' or go for 'boozy lunches in triple figure jobs'. It is the minority that are like this and in certain situations yes it is the womans fault for allowing it.

happysmiley - I think the person in full time work should do less domestic labour than the one at home or part time so obviously that one might do more domestic labour but it doesnt mean the other one isnt out doing a really crappy, shitty job too. You arent going to get it shared exactly equally if one does full time and the other doesnt work as I personally do think it depends what kind of jobs the couples do. Ifyou work in an office 8 hours a day you should do more than if you did a 12 hour shift down a mine etc.

Why is it the woman's fault for allowing it Sunny, rather than the man's fault for doing it?

Unusual feminist perspective ... oh wait...

'Maybe he should try taking them both to work with him for a week and see how easy it is to get any work done.'

I have looked after the kids for 2 weeks full time on my own whilst the wife was away supporting an ill family member. It was easy. The wife also gets plenty of free time to do her own thing in the evenings, I see it as some time for her, and I look after the kids, however I expect her to pull her weight, and if I am sitting on the couch watching TV whilst she is claening or dealing with the kids, I dont expect to get off my ass and help, just like I dont expect her to be working every minute that I am at work.

'Footlong my father had your attitude, as did many men and women of a certain generation. IT is a capitalistic, industrial wage-earner-is-more-valuable-than-childcarer attitude perpetuated by society to ensure that people who undertake the work of child-rearing are treated with contempt.'

For you to claim, I treat the duties of child rearing with contempt is pathetic. I said it was easy not unimportant. I know of lots of jobs which I consider easy due to short hours, great conditions etc... that doesnt mean I think those jobs are not important.

I find your attitude extremely distasteful.

'Footlong's description of life bears no meaning to most working people's reality - I don't know of any family set up even remotely similar'

Perfectly valid! Everyones situation is different, which is why one size fits all theories and solutions dont work.

I think its a mans fault when he goes out with someone after his money too. Like teh kind of men that get with younger women and then they run off with their money and then they moan about it. Its 100% the mans fault in those situations as that is completely obvious.

Why do you think she perpetuates it, Sunny?

Oh and I found this thread via a link in another forum, and didnt realise it was a feminism forumI had navigated to. So I shant be polluting any other threads in here with my dangerous male ideas!

But even couples who work equal amounts of time outside the home don't share equally. This just gets even worse if the woman chooses to SAH. This is so prevalent that it's simplistic to blame individual women. Why not blame the men that aren't pulling their weight?

Footlong, please stay. Your views are intersting.

Footlong, a fortnight, that you knew was ending is not the same as doing it all the time. Like that politician who lived on benefits for a week, bears no relation to the reality.

And have you thought that the 'easiness' of the task might be part of the problem that some women have?
The lack of intellectual and creative challenge in doing the tesco order and changing a nappy.
And then if a SAHM does try to do something creative with it all, cupcakes etc. she's derided for tweeness and pointlessness.

And yes there might not be a one size fits all theory, including yours.

So basically Sunny you think that for most people male or female, who make mistakes in their relationships, it's their own fault?

Oh - kay.

Let's pretend your position is a reasonable one.

So what? Who cares if it's their own fault? The question is, what is to be done about it? Apportioning fault, isn't really the issue IMO, it's how to achieve what most people want to achieve, which is happy, respectful relationships where everyone does their fair share.

Do you remember Mrs Thatcher used to say she did housework to relax.

I always thought that was a snide way of undermining women who found it stressful and hideous. Of course it's relaxing when it's not your main job. Like anything.

happysmiley - I think as I do less hours I do some extra boring bits sometimes but I dont have to I do it as a favour and to be nice as my life is easy and I dont have any real stress. I am thankful for that. My husband doesnt expect it and does his fair share but I do things as I know my job and the kids is the easiest thing I have done as I have done loads of other jobs and it is by far the best one.

Wastingaway - If you think doing things with children isnt intellecual and dont see it as one of the most interesting experiences in life then thats a shame. Watching how they learn, take things in and develop in to a human is a humbling, intresting experience in my eyes. Children are the most creative people ever as they see the world through new eyes and their take on it. There is nothing it compares to it and my husband always says you are so lucky as I miss so much and it is true.

The thing about domestics shitwork is that it's not rocket science and it's not 'fulfilling', either. It's just stuff that has to be done unless you are resigned to living in a tip, wearing dirty clothes and eating cold baked beans out of a tin. Pretty much the whole history of human civilisation has been about finding someone else to do the shitwork. Someone else posted a while ago on a similar thread that all those ancient societies where women, particularly wealthy women, had a degree of independence and leisure time, all had a 'slave class' designated by race/tribe ie captives in war or conquered people.
I am not advocating those as model societies, but at least they were honest about the fact that shitwork is shitwork, rather than trying to claim that women find it 'fulfilling' to scrub pans and dust all day. Conquered slaves know they have to do the shitwork or they'll get beaten up or deprived of food: the next level is the crap that's peddled to women about how 'creative' housework can be, and how there's something so special about having a fanjo that makes you crave shitwork (dunno, are you supposed to be able to stick a broom up it to sweep the floor in a way men can't?)

But again solidgoldbrass a lot of men are stuck in mindless humping and dumping jobs, sweeping the floor, mopping up, hoovering, keeping the place tidy etc. Most men I know do these jobs when at work (same as a lot of women). A large majority of men are in these jobs eg labouring, warehouseing, driving, factories etc a lot of them are mindless boring and not creative. 90% of all job centre jobs for both sexes are mindless, boring and repetitive and a lot of people do these jobs.

I doubt all those people find those jobs fulfilling just as I didnt when I was stuck in them.

So Sunny, you have no problems with cognitive dissonance? For you and Malificence life is perfect. So everyone else who's lives are not so perfect, and have huge problems with the reality of not-so-perfect relationships, are all to blame for the situations in which they find themsleves.

Sunny, do you tell your friend it is all her own fault that she is in a crap relationship?