Let's talk about cognitive dissonance ...

[colditz]

My relationship with my children's father broke up because he lied about money and hit me, and I finally, after many years of misery, refused to tolerate it. But why did I tolerate it for as long as I did when I was miserable?

I believed that children need their parents to stay together and that I would not cope alone. The facts were that children do not need one parent to be abusing the other, and that my life would have been easier without him merrily fucking it up.

The stress caused by the gap between my own personal beliefs and the reality of my situation was causing an uncomfortable feeling, often described as cognitive dissonance.

Is this the reason that people who consider themselves fair minded nevertheless perpetuate an unfair system? Intelligent women who do all the housework and childcare 'because he goes to work' must see the difference between theirs and their husband's exhaustion levels - why do they accept it, and decide that 'going out to work is really hard' when they surely must remeber the time when they went out to work and had no home responsibilities as being a darned sight easier than the life they live now?

I think it's bcause cognitive dissonance is a very uncomfortable state of being, and if you cannot change your situation, you must change your way of thinking to bring it in line with your situation or suffer the misery of inner conflict.

Which brings me to the rejection of feminism.

Why do so many women reject feminism when it would clearly improve their lot to be treated fairly?

Is it because they cannot easily become fairly treated individuals, not without huge conflict and arguments in their home and at work, so they decide, unconsciously, to believe that they are already treated fairly? And therefore feminism is defunct in their minds.

Intersting.

'Why do so many women reject feminism when it would clearly improve their lot to be treated fairly?' (OP)

I think these are some possible reasons that have applied to me over the years. I don't still think all this, and do consider myself a feminist:

1 They don't believe it can help. They see their situation as being unique and can't see how an -ism can help.

2 They don't trust men to give up power voluntarily and can't see how they can be made to do so.

3 They don't trust other women - often younger, often childless, often not in a such a complicated relationship, often seemingly more radical - to know what to fight for, any more than a single man would.

4 They feel that women are as different from each other as they are from men, and can't all be lumped together as having the same needs.

5 They have unreal expectations, among them that it is possible to have everything in life without having to compromise.

6 Sometimes it seems as if all the amazing, incredible advances that feminism has made in the lives of women have just put us in a situation that is every bit as difficult (though in different ways) as it was for our grandmothers. We're still exhausted (and it's not just because we might have selfish partners).

But - I still think it is wonderful what women have done for ourselves, and I think people bringing up babies these days have benefitted enormously from being freed up to make real choices. With the choices, though, comes the responsibility to choose wisely, and that is the most difficult thing ...

I think the difference between doing a shit manual job and being stuck at home doing the shit work, is that at work, you're with other people. You're talking, you're chatting, you're laughing, you're bantering, you're socialising - you're having human interraction. For many people doing it at home, there's only the radio and children for company. And while I like both the radio and children, that stimulus of other adult humans, can be the difference between something being OK and something being utterly soul-destroying.

Sunny, I love playing with DS, and if that was my job it would be ring-fenced and I could feel happy and enjoy it more.
However, I have to do all the housework too, at the same time.
And while he is brilliant, I can't talk about the semiotics of post-dramatic theatre with a 2 year old.

I just don't get it.

If I ever, by some strange circumstance, slipped into allowing someone else to tend to my every need and they pulled me up on it, I would be horrified.

Is that because of my conditioning or because I am a fully functioning human being?

Sorry, posts crossed. Carry on. Good discussion.

And Sunny, people respect workers. They don't respect SAHMs.

Gettingagrip - yeah she knows but she says she likes the drama and isnt the kind to stick with one boring man. She has been engaged to a couple of nice men but as they were nice she dumped them for being boring and fucked them over and went off with their money.

With the rest of what you wrote I think that you do have a part to play in what you do. I dont think my life is perfect I have to do shit things sometimes and so does my husband. Sometimes one more than the other but thats life. I think if you can honestly say you took years to plan your babies and took years of marriage before children. Then you set out things how you wanted to be before children and lived that way and tested them over a period of years to show they were serious about it. Then discussed in depth all aspects of parenting, how many kids you would have and your future then it would minimise chance of this happening.

Foot, you may think you would, no way to know how you'd react.

Grannie...I agree with your thoughtful post. I would also say that , certainly in my case, women don't have any idea before they have children just how difficult everything is going to get post-kids.

It's easy to be a feminist and be childless. It's when one member of the partnership has to downgrade all their expectations, and is not respected for that that the trouble starts I think.

And social pressure is huge, still. And from other women too!!

wastingaway - my job is the best in the world but I have to cook dinner for all the kids, mop, clean up after 35 toddlers after they have trashed the place often on my own. Its obvious you are going to have to do the crap stuff to but I do it as the good points outweigh the bad.

Not many people respect childcarers, cleaners, waiters, bin men etc. I know I have done loads of crap jobs and know people in these jobs and the way they are treated is like they are the scum of the earth.

Herbeutitude - DOnt you go out to groups and classes and talk to people? Why dont you get your friends over at night? Why dont you walk down town and talk to the shop owners and your neighbours etc? Thats what I do it isnt just at work I talk to people.

Sunny ...are you Octomum????

Sunny, I've worked shit jobs. They still get more respect than SAHMs.

I also think its a bit ridiculous to say you only want to look after kids nothing else. If I went in to work and said I am looking after 8 kids to myself today so I dont feel like making dinner, changing all those nappies or cleaning up then everyone would think I had gone barmy. (rightly so). Who else is meant to do it? Should I get my husband in and say we need to share this job as my job is solely childcare lol

gettingsgrip - No I work with kids and my own kids go there to and I have kids so I am a SAHM and a worker at the same time really. I love it its a cushy number!

"Herbeutitude - DOnt you go out to groups and classes and talk to people? Why dont you get your friends over at night? Why dont you walk down town and talk to the shop owners and your neighbours etc? Thats what I do it isnt just at work I talk to people"

Eh? I'm not a SAHM. My posts and attitudes aren't based solely on my own limited experience.

Well why dont the other people do that then? Surestart has 3500 centres many of which arent used to anywhere near full capacity. Areas without surestart what about village hall groups, set up your own group of mums you meet at the HV etc. Thats what most people do and how you meet loads of mums.

"I also think its a bit ridiculous to say you only want to look after kids nothing else. If I went in to work and said I am looking after 8 kids to myself today so I dont feel like making dinner, changing all those nappies or cleaning up then everyone would think I had gone barmy. (rightly so)."

But that's exactly what many men do (or abusive women whose partners are SAHDs, for that matter, although there are far far fewer of them). "I've been at work so I'm entitled to sit on my arse and watch my SAHM wife doing her second shift".

I'm suffering a fair bit of cognitive dissonance with this thread. I don't recognise any of the behaviours (either male or female) you are describing. I don't reject feminism at all, rather I view it as intrinsic to my mode of being. Pity (for them) that other women don't.

But you're not doing all the laundry while you're at work are you? Cleaning the oven/windows/carpet? Researching a better deal on your Gas or Home insurance? Stuck in the house waiting for a repairman?

And you get paid for it, which gives you status that a SAHM does not get.

Gettingagrip - 'It's when one member of the partnership has to downgrade all their expectations, and is not respected for that that the trouble starts I think.' I agree.

'And social pressure is huge, still. And from other women too!!'

Yes, that's what I don't understand. A lot of us (not all) do have real choices now - so why don't we just accept that some women choose to live differently? If we don't accept and support each other's choices, then aren't we being just as oppressive as we accuse men of being? Only it's worse because it feels like a betrayal, and we should know better.

Foot...if you had been brought up with a sense of entitlement then you could be pulled up on it a hundred times a day, and you would be the opposite of horrified.

I have to do the laundry at work lots of sheets 10 + a day, cook dinner, mop wee up constantly, do 10+ nappies a day, tidy up about a 100 times etc. We have to clean our own windows, floor, do our own painting and fixng of things etc. Its the boring bits of the job that I accept in order to do (what I think) is the best job at the world.

I dont know why anyone would care about status. I couldnt care less and its not something anyone I know cares about. I am the same person when I was chambermaid, flyer girl, military personnel, wiping pensioners bottoms etc. I am still me regardless of what people think of my job. My job doesnt define who I am and doesnt make me a better or worse person. I am still me a person of value and morals who is caring, kind and fun. Whether I am in work or not it doesnt change that for me personally.

I get paid for it but I very much expect my household income is considerably lower than the majority on here. I dont have a fancy car or a fancy house or fancy clothes that supposedly give you status but it doesnt bother me as I am more than what I have or the status people say I am. I dont need things like that to tell me self worth as I know in myself I am a good person. You dont need society to deem you fit as loads of people look down on things but as long as you know you are a good person why care?

But don't you see that your behaviours have caused all this? Why on earth do you all accept being treated on anything other than absolutely equal terms? Eh? No reason.

Gettingagrip - that is very true. And something that I am always astounded by. My sense of entitlement is obviously seriously underdeveloped for this world.....

bUT Quattro - don't you think it's interesting to exmine why people fall into behaviour patterns they don't want to? more usefuol thatn allocating blame? Talking of which, please can everyone stop asserting that if couples fall into these undesirable behaviour patterns, it's all teh fault of the female half of the couple? This is gobsmacking.