Let's talk about cognitive dissonance ...

[colditz]

My relationship with my children's father broke up because he lied about money and hit me, and I finally, after many years of misery, refused to tolerate it. But why did I tolerate it for as long as I did when I was miserable?

I believed that children need their parents to stay together and that I would not cope alone. The facts were that children do not need one parent to be abusing the other, and that my life would have been easier without him merrily fucking it up.

The stress caused by the gap between my own personal beliefs and the reality of my situation was causing an uncomfortable feeling, often described as cognitive dissonance.

Is this the reason that people who consider themselves fair minded nevertheless perpetuate an unfair system? Intelligent women who do all the housework and childcare 'because he goes to work' must see the difference between theirs and their husband's exhaustion levels - why do they accept it, and decide that 'going out to work is really hard' when they surely must remeber the time when they went out to work and had no home responsibilities as being a darned sight easier than the life they live now?

I think it's bcause cognitive dissonance is a very uncomfortable state of being, and if you cannot change your situation, you must change your way of thinking to bring it in line with your situation or suffer the misery of inner conflict.

Which brings me to the rejection of feminism.

Why do so many women reject feminism when it would clearly improve their lot to be treated fairly?

Is it because they cannot easily become fairly treated individuals, not without huge conflict and arguments in their home and at work, so they decide, unconsciously, to believe that they are already treated fairly? And therefore feminism is defunct in their minds.

Intersting.

Interesting thread - never thought about cognitive dissonance applying to the thought processes of (certain) men excusing themselves from housework.

Nothing insightful to add, just enjoying the conversation!

What is interesting is this isn't just a gender issue. There are countless posts on here about teenagers who refuse to help out. My DD is three and she takes her plate out to the kitchen, has to tidy up certain toys before getting others out.

As a teen I had to do a LOT of housework and babysitting. My mum and step-dad worked shifts, and if they came back and the house was a mess or there had been some kind of problem, they would argue and sometimes it would escalate badly :(. I think that is why I am a bit funny about housework, and I tend to do it in anger and at times of stress which isn't healthy. That is obviously an extreme.

But there is a balance to be had with everyone in their family pulling their weight (even if that weight is tiny ), without ascribing too much responsibility to children. The galling thing was my brother never had to do the stuff that I did, and look after my younger sister even when he was old enough and I had left home. Not sure if that was a gender thing, but he certainly wasn't considered 'responsible' enough to babysit etc.

Why don't you just get a cleaner.

Both me and DH work full time and earn roughly the same. We pay a cleaner to come once a fortnight to do the main cleaning and the rest we split between ourselves and DD.

However, if I were to give up my job and SAH, i would take on the vast majority of the housework as I feel that would be fair.

V. interesting this. Not just about gender, but also about family relationships. I remember in my twenties pretending that my family had been normal and reasonably happy because I couldn't bear the idea that "everyone else" had normal relationships with their parents and siblings and I tried to ape that with my family - unsuccessfully, inevitably.

Getting a cleaner doesn't solve the basic problem of a man believing that cleaning up shit is basically women's work - it does nothing to engender respect, all it does is make life easier and less argumentative on a day to day basis.

That's fine if you can afford a cleaner. But it isn't a long term solution in terms of women being respected by men, Daisy, and men accepting that they are responsible for cleaning up their own shit.

But i dno't think it's anything to do with being a woman or a man (not in my generation anyway). It's to do with who stays at home.

If my DH stayed at home, I would expect him to do the bulk of the cleaning, and i would be pissed off coming home to a dump.

Yes but Daisy would he??? And IME you could be as pissed off as you like, day after day, it changes nothing if a man really won't pull his weight. You are just the 'nagging' other half.

My aunt is the main breadwinner and my uncle is a SAHD. They have always had a cleaner, because my aunt just couldn't bear the mess she came home to (at first) and it caused arguments. Even though my uncle is one of the nicest men I've ever met, and if you'd asked I'd have said, oh yes he's a good'un he'll do the cleaning all right. Men just don't have the same mindset. Looking after their DD was a full time occupation to him.

Hmm. Having looked at the first few posts, I was about to jump in with 'Actually I do find life as a SAHM easier than when I used to work'. But then I realised that was because I used to work AND do all the housework. If I'm honest, it was one of the main reason I gave up work recently (apart from spending more time with my adorable dc ). I figured if I was going to be doing all the housework than I damn well wasn't going to go out to work as well.
Good thread.

I'm lucky with my DH then. He's tidier than me and easily does his share of the housework. Not sure if it's the way he was brought up, or just who he is. I recognise I'm lucky though.

So you DO have a cleaner then Daisy! Your DH.

Lucky you

Daisy, you sound like the patriarchy. The one who goes out to work does not have a harder time of it than the one stuck in the house with the baby. In fact the only reason the "worker" can work at all is because they've got wrap-around childcare.
How do single people cope without a wife cleaning up after them when they're at work? What about single mothers?
NObody is too important that they get let off cleaning up 50% of the shit. In fact, going out to work then coming home is a change of atmosphere, a gear change, whereas the one always at home has had the drip drip slog of caring for the baby.
Add to that, the SAH person has taken a career hit, and so they may like to use the time they have spare to brush up on study or skills.
There is no reason at all why the SAH parent should do more housework, whether that person is male or female.

Sorry, the patriarchy quip was to this:

"If my DH stayed at home, I would expect him to do the bulk of the cleaning, and i would be pissed off coming home to a dump"

I'm so sick of the idea that the person who puts in 8 hours or so of paid work is automatically let of the housework because of the outdated notion that their work is naturally superior to babycare. WOmen who believe this are as bad as men who do.

This thread nails the real killer issue. Thanks, OP.

A few years ago when I was single I made a conscious decision never to talk about housework with my coupled friends, ever again. there were two separate occasions where I unwittingly helped to precipitate an almighty row within two different couples, essentially along the lines of
she: "why am I your servant, how did this happen, our child is now 3 (or something) and your life is nearly "back to normal" and I still live on a crazy treadmill of endless labour, pull yourself together, act like an adult and show me and our daughter some respect"
he: "how dare you make out I am some evil villain, I am too angry to discuss this, I am now going to flounce out into the night and leave you wondering where I have gone and if / when I will come back for long enough for you to thoroughly regret starting the whole thing."

I think these reactions are worse from "nice", vaguely hippyish men, because the bite of the cognitive dissonance is more painful. ARGH! Am I really a bastard? But I am supposed to be a nice guy, I read articles about locally sourced vegetables. But the alternative is I get off my arse and clean the bathroom. Ooh that is too horrible. Both are horrible. I refuse to face either horribleness, I will make all this go away by having such a rage it is undiscussable.

DP has started asking all his friends - especially the ones who do what he does, or tries to do as much as he can on top of other work and childcare, a creative freelance job - how much childcare they do. He does two full days a week on his own and each one exhausts him. None of the ones who are at all prolific look after their children alone on a regular basis. It's easier to do creative work on top of more WOH work than it is to start creative work after spending a day with a toddler. I think this is a really telling point in a "room of one's own" way - it's not just the time you spend doing childcare or housework, it's the extent to which it drains you and depletes your resources for doing anything else.

BTW I was only able to read this thread through properly because I am not in this situation myself at the moment. I have been boiling with rage about this in the past. It colours everything, and then you think you are going mental.

"I think this is a really telling point in a "room of one's own" way - it's not just the time you spend doing childcare or housework, it's the extent to which it drains you and depletes your resources for doing anything else."

Really good point.

This thread is fascinating for me. I've been lurking on this board for a while but been prompted to post by this - thanks, Colditz.

I feel like I am currently fighting with myself against slipping into this sort of mindset. Before DS, DH and I both had good careers but I had earned a lot more than him over time and was by far the main financial contributor. We contributed equally to the housework, managing finances etc. While on mat leave, DH got a huge step up in salary with a brilliant new job so earned a fair bit more than me and opened up loads of career opportunities by doing this role. I went back after mat leave to work 3 days a week, and DH suddenly got offered a crazy new job with huge payrise. Suddenly he has a pretty stressful but ultimately incredibly well-paying and career-defining job. It's a no brainer that he does that and I do my 3 days a week while children are young. One year on from him taking that job, I'm 40+4, on mat leave for a year, and so have time to actually think about what this means for us/me long term...

It would be very easy after this lot of mat leave to become a SAHM, because I'm unhappy in my career at the moment and we truly do not need the money from my salary any more. I have the luxurious freedom of choice and time to choose what I want to do :) But I worry that that could be a slippery slope into this sort of mindset where household stuff becomes my territory, DH becomes the man who earns out of the house, and we end up in some terrible 50s household.

So I find myself fighting against it by stealth. I do not say thank you if DH does things around the house, even if he has gone above and beyond what is reasonably his share; I do not accept that any roles are exclusively mine; I make pointed comments if he hasn't done a particular task (e.g. laundry) for a while. And I sometimes actually wonder how he puts up with me - he is doing the bulk of the cooking at the moment (probably 5 out of 7 days) and freezing loads for when the baby arrives, he does more than his fair share of tidying (partly because he is more anal than me), and he takes DS out on his own at weekends so I can rest. Yet I make comments about how the laundry has become my role, or try to big up the little I have done while lazing around on mat leave when it is DS's nursery days etc. I'm not sure I'm particularly nice to live with at the moment, but I think I am just trying to protect myself from ever falling into a 'being at home means I do it all' role. So my poor DH is exhausted by work, and doing loads at home all because I am trying to protect myself from what could happen to me in the future.

Is it reasonable to do this? To be so conscious of where things could end up that I actually do less than my DH? I know part of it is that I am so heavily pregnant and it will change after initial few months as I get into groove with the children and can take on a bit more responsibility at home. But my DH is such a brilliant man (stellar career, yet doesn't moan about doing at least his fair share of things at home) - rather like aitch's I think but perhaps without quite so much self-awareness of it - that I then start to think maybe I should be taking more of the burden at home from him.

Confusing. Confused. And sat arsing around on MN soul-searching in some kind of mega essay when I suppose I could be doing some ironing

Meg, I understand your fears and you're right, I think there's a very real trap in front of you. Have you talked to your DH about your fears? I think you need to be open about your (justifiable) concerns rather than to snipe at the poor man without him understanding why (and sorry if that comes across as patronising/stating the obvious - it's not meant to be).

Lenin, I'm sooo fed up of food. Compromise on food is really bugging me atm. I was actually vegan for a while before I met DH (11 years ago) and I think the never eating the same meal thing took it's toll. Guess which one made the compromise.
And which one cooks the meals.

Hi Meg would just like to agree with nametaken - talk to your DH about your fears, because then he won't feel got at, he'll understand where you're coming from.

Really good point about the Room of one's Own thing.

You're right nicknametaken - there will need to be a big conversation at some point once we're settled with baby and start to look towards what the future holds for me and hence us. I just feel I have to protect myself now, so I haven't slipped into the role by default before we have that chat IYSWIM. And I try never to say I'm lucky having a DH like him, because most of the time he does no more than his fair share so shouldn't get undue praise for it, but in the context of how other men are, I know that I am lucky to have found a good one who I will be able to have this sort of conversation with and come up with a solution.

Fortunately, I'm not sniping so much as not saying anything and not doing as much as I probably should. And he is bloody great and straightforward and doesn't ponder things as much as me, so is just assuming it is that I'm heavily pregnant and grumpy and therefore to be expected so I am able to get away with it for now. But that in itself makes me feel bad.

Lenin - totally with you on ironing. The only ironing that needs to be done round here is DH's work shirts, and as he loathes it and it isn't my work 'uniform' to deal with we pay a local company to do it. But yes, it is so easy to get bogged down with little ones - not only do you have the household stuff to do, but it is usually much messier with kids, and you have to fit chores in around them so they take longer or eat into the evening, and the amount of time you spend looking after them also has to be factored in. It's a wonder sometimes when you find 10 minutes to just sit and breathe and think yourself, let alone spend happy time with your partner.

Must be so much worse when supposedly in a partnership but one person sees the 8/10 hours they are WOH as the only time they have to work, and can do all the breathing, sitting, thinking they want while their DP spends all their waking time picking up after them and actually facilitating their excessive relaxation time.

"I just feel I have to protect myself now, so I haven't slipped into the role by default"

I completely get this - very, very easy to do.

I think a lot of these problems can be because we have been conditioned over years to play our domestic roles out as we saw them played out at home - and in the 60s/70s/80s when most of us were growing up, it was much more common for there to be this male-female divide, and for women to stay at home and chase around after the man who has been out at work 5 days a week. Yet alongside this, many of us have been brought up being told the importance of a good education, developing a career, settling down later, plus we have a greater range of role models and options in society than perhaps our own mothers did which all tell us that we don't have to do what our mums did if we don't want. So we end up having to navigate a path between what we have been 'conditioned' to do at home versus what we have learned may be other routes in life.

The impact of all this is that the role change for men is that they have to take on more responsibility at home - so they are having to move from a position of life being easier (work for 8 hours then be waited on hand and foot) to harder (work for 8 hours then do a few more hours at home doing stuff you might never have been taught to) while women are fighting against slipping into the role they have learnt from their own mothers and trying to ensure their partners do their fair share. Recipe for discontent all round really.

Hence my comment about slipping into the role by default - it is always easier to follow the path of least resistance and just end up doing what you have been conditioned to do. It is harder to fight it and think about it consciously and choose how you want things to be. And this is where I'm at at the moment.

Colditz - this really is a thought-provoking thread you started :o