Let's talk about cognitive dissonance ...

[colditz]

My relationship with my children's father broke up because he lied about money and hit me, and I finally, after many years of misery, refused to tolerate it. But why did I tolerate it for as long as I did when I was miserable?

I believed that children need their parents to stay together and that I would not cope alone. The facts were that children do not need one parent to be abusing the other, and that my life would have been easier without him merrily fucking it up.

The stress caused by the gap between my own personal beliefs and the reality of my situation was causing an uncomfortable feeling, often described as cognitive dissonance.

Is this the reason that people who consider themselves fair minded nevertheless perpetuate an unfair system? Intelligent women who do all the housework and childcare 'because he goes to work' must see the difference between theirs and their husband's exhaustion levels - why do they accept it, and decide that 'going out to work is really hard' when they surely must remeber the time when they went out to work and had no home responsibilities as being a darned sight easier than the life they live now?

I think it's bcause cognitive dissonance is a very uncomfortable state of being, and if you cannot change your situation, you must change your way of thinking to bring it in line with your situation or suffer the misery of inner conflict.

Which brings me to the rejection of feminism.

Why do so many women reject feminism when it would clearly improve their lot to be treated fairly?

Is it because they cannot easily become fairly treated individuals, not without huge conflict and arguments in their home and at work, so they decide, unconsciously, to believe that they are already treated fairly? And therefore feminism is defunct in their minds.

Intersting.

larry, feminism is not about equality. It tends to be people who want to argue an anti-feminist viewpoint who hold up the "equality" trump card
But you'd know that.. being clued up about feminism.

Now, back to cognitive dissonance. Lary what do you make of this:

In the happiness stakes men fare better. It goes in a sliding scale:

1. Married men (most happy)
2. Single women
3. Married women (more depressed
4. Single men (most likely to commit suicide)

Seeing as a feminist discussion can only include those facts and figures, what can you contribute to this thread?

"The obsession with males being paedophiles"

rubbish, everyone who works with children is police checked, of both (all?) sexes.

Teaching became a female dominated profession when pay went sharply down (in real terms) and workload went up.

Girls outperforming boys - is that a problem? for whom? Was it a problem when boys outperformed girls, and if so, whose, and whose job was it to work towards changing things?

I can't help thinking that when females don't "succeed" (according to whatever terms) it's felt that they haven't worked hard enough, but if males don't, it's because they haven't had enough help (maybe from nasty cruel women who are too busy taking care of themselves, or something)

Actually, as we all know, in general exam results have consistently shot up. So boys' results must have gone up too. well done boys - an improvement is an improvement. But girls' results went up more. So they improved a bit more - so why is that so terrible? It's not at the expense of boys, is it. It's not like boys can't read or pass exams now. they pass exams better than ever before.

Can't believe this, I pop off to another thread, come back and Lary has totally taken over this thread and is now talking about education. Lary, type in "scat porn" into a search engine, then come back and tell me feminism is irrelevant and patriarchy doesn' exist, and that you'd be happy for your daughter to participate in scat porn. IF you wouldn't then feminism is needed now just as much as ever.

off topic: the reason boys fare worse in school is because of masculinity. They're frightened of looking like swots. You can't penalise girls for boys' behaviour

Kickassangel,

I totally agree with you. Please look at my first few posts in this thread. I hate stereotypes and agree it is unhelpful.

I do find the axiomatic idea of living in a patriarchal society today purely based on average earnings incredibly simplistic. I would like someone to seriously address some of the points below. As in address the points, not call me irrelevant, distracting etc. If you find me the above, just don't bother to reply, it is that simple.

1/ If a proportion (let's say 30-50%) of women do self select themselves out of the workforce through choice, then should men's income not be proportionately higher in a truly equal society. I do know women who genuinely want to bring up their own children, regardless of having the potential of a very high flying career. This is not necessarily societal conditioning, it could just be a genuine expression of free will. They are bright, well informed and tough women who can and do refuse to accept societal norms in other areas of their lives.

2/ Why is money always considered equal to power. How is it in divorce the mother is always assume to get custody of the children, all other things being equal? That is certainly a form of power.

3/ Why is salary equated to spending power. There are a lot of couples I know who have joint accounts. The husband may earn the money but the woman has equal access and is often the one tasked with managing the money.

4/ Although men do catch up later, girls certainly have the upper hand for the 1st 18 years. Psychologically, these are considered the most important for confidence building etc.

Fair questions I think deserving of at least fair answers

If this was any other topic, I'd shout CAN WE PLEASE TALK ABOUT COGNITIVE DISSONANCE IN MARRIAGE but you're not allowed to do that in the feminist topic.
Here you have to politely kowtow because heaven forbid we prioritize women. Oooh, no, that's a disruption of the natural order. Let's go back to discussing how hard done to boys are in school

Vezzie,

Current exams mean nothing, as you probably know. What I studied aged 16 is what is now studied aged 18.

When girls underperformed, it was considered a problem. I remember it being debated when I was at school. Neither sex should underperform.

Sakura

If you seriously are going to tell me that boys underperform at school due to masculinity the I will tell you women in the workforce underperform due to femininity and need to "man up". That is NOT my view by the way, before you actually think it is.

OMG, can't believe I'm doing this but here goes

#2 In all patriarchies around the world, including the UK until very recently, the children belonged to the father. It is a very recent development in the UK that the mother has been able to take the children. THis has nothing to do with the mother's rights BTW, this is regarded as being in the best interest of the children. All well and good. Despite the fact the mother bore and suckled the child, she is given no rights to her children under the law.

So the idea that children go to the mother upon divorce being traditional is wrong.
Besides that, fathers are very concerned about their rights (not their responsibilities, I might add). BUt that's an enormous topic of discussion beyond the scope of this thread

women "underperform" (by which you mean take all the shit jobs) in the workforce because we live under capitalism and women bear children

Sakura,

There are many here who maybe do believe that the patriarchy is wrong but like men. However, you genuinely dislike men and believe them to be 2nd class people. Your posts shout that out loud and clear.

Hey Lary, here's a though: maybe married men are happier than everyone else because marriage benefits them in some way

WHat do you make of the extensive evidence that married men are the happiest members of society, and single men the most suicidal?

Sakura,

I answered your question about my cleaner. Yes, I do employ her because I don't want to do the shite work.

You did not answer my question in reply:

Do you never employ anyone to do anything for you that you prefer not to do yourself?

Larry, WHat do you make of the extensive evidence that married men are the happiest members of society, and single men the most suicidal

I don't think we should talk to Larry any more - it's a waste of time (I prefer wasted time to be spent more pleasantly).

Where are we supposed to go where we don't have to argue first principles? Why can't he take up the suggestion to go and do some basic reading before trying to enter into a debate like this one? Again, I say: you would not see behaviour like this on a board for any other topic and if you did, the engineers / DJs / artists / whatever would just ignore the person.

I think we all encouraged Larry by very well-meaningly trying to explain, clarify demonstrate, reason. But I don't think this space is best used to justify feminism to non-feminists who don't want to be persuaded. Obviously everyone chooses for themselves what they do and who they talk to but I am bored and annoyed now.

Larry, WHat do you make of the extensive evidence that married men are the happiest members of society, and single men the most suicidal

Agree vezzie, if he doesn't addres the first principle of:

1. married men are happiest
2. single women, second most happy
3. married women, most likely to need valium to get through the day
4. single men, most fragile of all the species

then we should ignore him

Sakura,

I think if the society were totally patriarchal, married men would be top and single men second.

The fact that men take first and last place is probably more complex to analyse. And, what no-one will deny is that society was very sexist and patriarchal and any married man over 50 does probably have the easier deal. Those will skew the stats. Why are single men the most suicidal do you think?

Have you ever employed anyone to do a job that you do not like (again)?

Larry what's with the mind-reading act?

You had the temerity to tell me what I think earlier and now you are doing it to Sakura.

All you are showing is that you do not understand feminism. Hell you don't even know what patriarchy is. Women are constantly having their feminist discussions shut down by people in the way you are doing (possibly unconsciously) here.

I don't want to talk about boys in schools on a thread about cognitive dissonance in marriage in a feminist discussion. You are off topic.

At this moment in time I do not care about boys in schools and refuse to discuss this issue just because some bloke has blundered in form the land of male privilege and is trying to dictate to a group of women what they think and what they may talk about.

Beachcomber,

Thanks for the jammy dodger, was feeling a bit peckish :).

no lary, your analytical skills leave a lot to be desired

married men are happiest because they've got a woman doing their shitwork, humouring them and massaging their ego

single women are second happiest because they've got no wifework

married women come in third because they have to give up so much of themselves to their marriage that they become depressed

single men come last because patriarchy does not benefit all men to the same degree- men are hierarchical creatures and have a pecking order. Single men do not have a wife to bolster their ego and earning power. However, even men who are the dregs of society have an advantage over the wealthiest woman, because of their sex.

A woman may be protected somewhat by her wealth, but she is still a woman, and will face oppression because of it, be that rape or general sexism, the workplace or wherever