Let's talk about cognitive dissonance ...

[colditz]

My relationship with my children's father broke up because he lied about money and hit me, and I finally, after many years of misery, refused to tolerate it. But why did I tolerate it for as long as I did when I was miserable?

I believed that children need their parents to stay together and that I would not cope alone. The facts were that children do not need one parent to be abusing the other, and that my life would have been easier without him merrily fucking it up.

The stress caused by the gap between my own personal beliefs and the reality of my situation was causing an uncomfortable feeling, often described as cognitive dissonance.

Is this the reason that people who consider themselves fair minded nevertheless perpetuate an unfair system? Intelligent women who do all the housework and childcare 'because he goes to work' must see the difference between theirs and their husband's exhaustion levels - why do they accept it, and decide that 'going out to work is really hard' when they surely must remeber the time when they went out to work and had no home responsibilities as being a darned sight easier than the life they live now?

I think it's bcause cognitive dissonance is a very uncomfortable state of being, and if you cannot change your situation, you must change your way of thinking to bring it in line with your situation or suffer the misery of inner conflict.

Which brings me to the rejection of feminism.

Why do so many women reject feminism when it would clearly improve their lot to be treated fairly?

Is it because they cannot easily become fairly treated individuals, not without huge conflict and arguments in their home and at work, so they decide, unconsciously, to believe that they are already treated fairly? And therefore feminism is defunct in their minds.

Intersting.

Basically anyone who is happy and doesnt agree with Sakuru is suffering from Cognitive Dissonance...

They will only be cured once they agree with her anti male ideals.

Agree footlong my husband and I both agree we are very lucky to live in the modern age. It still gets busy and tiring sometimes but we lucky to have washing machines, hoovers and especially the internet

The important bit you said there is the WE bit. It isnt a gender thing. He is just as lucky as you.

Which is why in my first post, not only did I say my wife was spoilt, I said I was spoilt as well. A point intentioanlly ignored by the reponses.

Sunny,

As I have written before the feminism I have (generally) seen described on MN bears no relation to what most people (who have not read the modern version) would expect it to be. It is not "equality", which most right thinking people would think was fair. It starts with an axiom: "we live in a patriarchal society" and then tries to explain everything from that perspective.

To me, it infantilises women and the women portrayed bear no relation to the strong independent women I know personally. Those women take many different paths in life, some are SAHM and some work in high flying careers. What they all have in common is that they take responsibility for their own decisions.

larrygrylls - i agree that if someone is truly happy in their situation then as feminists we should be happy that they are happy and consider that a success. I think the point is that people will generally say they are happy as the default. Footlong asked his wife if she was happy, and she said yes. If someone asked me, I would say yes. But that is a snap answer to a question, not a fully thought through answer. Footlong's wife and I may be truly happy, but it takes more than a quick question to establish that. It requires a long hard look at yourself, probably over a longish time period, to examine whether you truly are happy, or whether actually you have (to paraphrase colditz's OP) changed your way of thinking to bring it in line with your situation rather than suffer the misery of inner conflict. Cognitive dissonance is in effect the halfway house - you realise something is wrong and it unsettles you, you work on it and then you either let your beliefs override your situation and change the situation or you sink into that acceptance of your situation and compromise yourself. And many women probably sink into acceptance of the situation because it is the path of least resistance and requires less upheaval of their lives and those of their families than changing the situation.

Now there are probably plenty of women who are out at work because they feel they ought to be for whatever reason (worked hard at their career, don't like being a financial burden to their spouse, want to set a WOH example to their children etc.) when they would rather be at home with their children, and they are suffering the cognitive dissonance we're talking about, or have even gone through that and reconciled their beliefs to the situation and continue WOH even though they are not truly happy. And there are also a whole load of SAHMs who will say they are happy not because they truly are but because they have compromised their beliefs to fit in with their situation. As feminists we should be supporting both groups of women to be free to do exactly what they want to do, not override what they want for the greater benefit of everyone else (their family or society). Women should not be made to be martyrs because it is makes life easier for the people around them.

This obviously doesn't just apply to women - everyone should be able to follow their beliefs and be in a situation that reflects that - but when you think about how society is set up, it is perhaps more likely that women end up in this position more than men. Men have generally had freer choice to do what they want, whereas women have been pushed into certain roles for a long time. For example, I have never seen the media criticise a SAH dad for not being a "real man" because he stays at home while his wife is the income generator, but the media time and again criticises women who have the temerity to go out to work and put their children in childcare. You also repeatedly see stories of women with careers asking how they juggle it all - home, children, work - but you never see articles like that about men. And there are always articles about how fat, ugly, un-made-up women are, but rarely about men. So men may feel the same pressures as women to conform to societal norms, but they aren't as intense as those that women face every day.

[Sorry this is very rambly. I am 11 days overdue and possibly in early labour and trying to take my mind off it by ranting a bit!!!]

footlong - i don't think marenmj was saying she necessarily works as hard in the same way as her great grandmother. I think she was saying that people say "you have all these modern appliances" and assume therefore that she has no work to do.

Whereas her great grandmother would have spent much more time doing laundry, marenmj has more time to do other work while her machine does the laundry and probably actually has much more time to spend looking after her children than her great grandmother ever did. For example, marenmj has time to do the school run whereas greatgrandma just waved the kids off at the door, for example. The school run may not be physically as tiring as laundry, but it still takes time, and still means that marenmj is working: that time is not hers to do as she wishes.

Machines make certain tasks easier - making them physically and/or temporally less demanding - but they don't necessarily reduce the amount of work somebody does overall. Also expectations around hygiene, cleanliness etc. are such nowadays that whereas great grandmother had one day a week devoted to laundry, nowadays people probably do loads every other day because of the invention of washing machines and driers. Or whereas greatgrandmother spent one day a week on dusting/cleaning/sweeping now many people expect houses to be spick and span and pristine every day because of the invention of hoovers...

Work expands to fill the time available, and all that...

marenmj - i know i'm completely making assumptions there about what you do with your time! forgive me - i'm just trying to make a point :)

Megonthemoon,

Not rambly and well argued. Good luck with your baby. My wife is due November 15th with our second.

Where I take issue is where you say "women should be free to do exactly what they want to do and not override what they want for the greater good of everyone else".

Isn't life about compromise and consequence, regardless of sex? Is the man who takes a boring job with long hours to put more in the family coffers equally compromising and not "being true to himself"?

I think this strand of feminism comes close to the general modern idea that people have a "right" to be happy. I just don't see that as a right and, in my experience, those who see life as quite tough, and just get on with it, actually achieve the greatest happiness.

I look at things differently megonthemoon if I have the opportunity and luxury to be able to drop my children of at school I will feel happy and blessed. I think it isnt work as you have the chance to walk with your child, talk to them and see them. I wouldnt ever think of that as work. I would see me as the lucky one for being able to do it.

Megonthemoon - I dont agree with many of your points, bt I shant repsond because it would just be repeating much of what I have already said. But I must say it was very refreshing to read a rebuttal to my opinion that was not full of sweeping generalisations, man hatered and nasty stereotyps.

I might nit agree with your points, but you made them very well!

Damn typos... I promise to be more carefull....
Apologies.

colditz - I remember when I went out to work FT and it was incredibly much harder a life than staying at home and taking care of my family (which, incidentally, I do with great diligence). You really cannot generalise as you do:

"Intelligent women who do all the housework and childcare 'because he goes to work' must see the difference between theirs and their husband's exhaustion levels - why do they accept it, and decide that 'going out to work is really hard' when they surely must remeber the time when they went out to work and had no home responsibilities as being a darned sight easier than the life they live now?"

The experiences I have in my life if you are the one who gets the luxury of being with your kids or dropping them off at school you know you are on the good deal. Most mums you meet say I am lucky at the moment as I am working school hours or am only having to do part time. They all look at it as they are the lucky ones and the unlucky ones are the ones who have to work full time.

As I said before my husband always says you dont know how lucky you are seeing all the little things that (our daughter) does at nursery as I come home and tell him stories every night. He also finds it very difficult as he works overtime a lot and does his placement so doesnt get to put her to bed a lot of nights. I see that as a sacrifice he makes for us and that makes him a hardworking, good husband.

larry - yes, you're right of course that there are plenty of men who do that (sunny has said she knows a lot of men like that, and my BIL for example is one of those men). And I don't think that is any fairer, if they have been forced into that position by default/societal pressure. I think the issue is, why are they doing it? Are they doing it because they and their spouse have had an honest discussion and they have agreed that the best thing is that the wife forgoes her career and stays at home with the children and he therefore has to work longer hours than perhaps he would like - so they are both compromising themselves for their mutual benefit. Or has he been forced into it because he has a wife who just swans around doing nothing and expects him to earn enough to pay childcare while she goes off and does her manicures and pedicures and spa breaks. Other than WAGs, I really don't think many women expect that of their husbands. I know nobody who does. So a man working harder than perhaps he wants for the family coffers is probably doing it because his wife is also compromising too - so they still have a broadly equal relationship.

But I think there are probably more cases of women completely giving up their beliefs to support their man in his chosen career and look after their children, and are effectively being martyrs - allowing other people to be as happy as they can while forgoing their own happiness.

I don't think there is a right to happiness, but I think people have the right not to have their chance at happiness taken away to facilitate other people's chances at happiness. So a man can choose to have a fulfilling career and free time to play golf or watch footie and not have to do the school run or deal with sick kids in the night, i.e. have a happy life, however he defines it, but it is not fair to choose that if his spouse is not completely happy doing the things necessary to make that possible. And I'm not sure many spouses would be truly happy with doing the things to make that possible (some but not many) yet many men do seem to have that sort of life, so it is therefore at their wife's expense. It is much rarer for a woman to have time to have a fulfilling career, time to go to the spa or shopping not do the school run or deal with sick kids in the night and it be her spouse who is picking up the slack to allow that to happen. It is usually paid childcare or largely female relatives who pick up the slack in those situations, not the husband.

[I stereotype of course - if I were the wife in the second situation I'd be more likely to be at the golf course and watching sport than in the spa or shopping :)]

Filmbuffmum- If you are both living in a house with 2 high flying career people then you will have to get help. Only other suggestion is marrying a man who isnt as educated and high flying and letting him stay at home and go part time. Not many women will choose these types of men though if they are high flyers themselves but lots of high flying men will choose less educated, more suited to the home type of women.

Meg,

I just don't know many men as you describe in your third paragraph. Most men with children that I know accept that the SAHM is also "working" and spend a fair chunk of their free time cooking or looking after their children (I hate the word "childcare" when it refers to people's own children). I do know some SAHM who have the whole day free now that the children are at school and have lunches out and nice daytime games of tennis. On the other hand, they have generally put in some very tough pre school years with multiple young children to care for.

On the other hand, maybe there is a class/area divide and there are many more "unreconstructed" men than I see in my personal experience.

It does scare me that a lot of people (women and men) see caring for their own children as tough work. I have done it myself and always feel guilty afterwards. It is "work" but it is also a pleasure unless the child is having an off day or is sick. I really like Sunny's attitude in that regard.

I still think that "happiness" does not need to be examined analytically. If a person feels happy in themselves, they should seize the moment and enjoy it. Analysing why you should be unhappy is the way to depression.

LeninGrad - Why did you not go back to work and put the children in childcare? My little one started at 3 and a half months without me for 4 days a week as I had to go and work in a bank on the cash desk as I was entitled to any maternity pay. I had to go back to my degree after 10 days until 3 and a half months and had 2 days after my last assignment before I started my job. I couldnt even have 2 weeks maternity leave after birth which I found difficult at times (especially as my daughter woke up every hour argh!).

The thing is there isnt any point in me worrying about it as I needed the student loan to live and then I needed my wages. I suppose when you take out choice it just seems like something you have to get on with and even though its crap, tiring and stressful it wont be forever so just have to get on with it. I think sometimes looking at things from a different attitude is what keeps you happy and going through the hard times. I also think that if you both appreciate how much each other is doing then even if you are both doing loads and dont have much time it keeps the relationship happy.

LeninGrad - Childcare is changing as nowadays so many children are in childcare as opposed to at home. It is changing to a graduate led sector (and the people that do it do it for the love as even when you have the degree you only get the £6). Some childcarers have a bad reputation but most do it for the love and not for the money. A lot of nurseries now have qualified teachers as well as Early Years Professionals (that is if you have the degree and do the status qualification which has been brought in to improve standards).

I think as childcare progresses then more people who like their careers (or have to work for financial reasons) will start using childcare. Its also reasonably priced as at my setting you get 10 hours of care, all meals, all nappies for under £30.

So what do you think of me then Larry? I was 'lucky' to have a washing machine, and a hoover. I was also 'lucky' enough to work at home, so that I was with my children whilst also doing far more than 40 hours a week at my 'job-job' (the one that paid me money).

I was also lucky enough to be able to study for a degree whilst doing all this.

My exH WOTH from dawn until late every day in his family business.

The stress of all this luck nearly drove me to suicide.

Do you know what just tipped me over into leaving? My exH in his mother's house, if he had a drink of water, he would wash and dry the glass and put it back in the cupboard... in our house he left it on the worktop for ME to wash and dry.

Just that little sign of disrespect...and ironically, his mother was a traditiona;l SAHM, whereas I was working AND looking after the children, and cleaning the toilets.

Now I am a spoilt 50s single person, with no cognitive dissonance, still working OTH of course, still looking after the children (and paying for them as exH contributes nothing).

Lenin - I'm close to securing funding for a workplace creche here! ML is really short here - only 3 months - and as a result, many women just don't return after having a baby because the children are so small when ML time is up, no matter that nannies are very affordable here. Talking to some of these women, they talk about being forced into being a SAHM, that by stealth argument crops up, and what would help us to retain these incredibly talented women is a) more flexible working and b) workplace creches to allow closer care, continued BF etc. a) was a piece of piss to organise b) a bit harder, but am almost there. Interestingly, many men in the office also would like access for their children.