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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Let's talk about cognitive dissonance ...

1001 replies

colditz · 15/09/2010 09:33

My relationship with my children's father broke up because he lied about money and hit me, and I finally, after many years of misery, refused to tolerate it. But why did I tolerate it for as long as I did when I was miserable?

I believed that children need their parents to stay together and that I would not cope alone. The facts were that children do not need one parent to be abusing the other, and that my life would have been easier without him merrily fucking it up.

The stress caused by the gap between my own personal beliefs and the reality of my situation was causing an uncomfortable feeling, often described as cognitive dissonance.

Is this the reason that people who consider themselves fair minded nevertheless perpetuate an unfair system? Intelligent women who do all the housework and childcare 'because he goes to work' must see the difference between theirs and their husband's exhaustion levels - why do they accept it, and decide that 'going out to work is really hard' when they surely must remeber the time when they went out to work and had no home responsibilities as being a darned sight easier than the life they live now?

I think it's bcause cognitive dissonance is a very uncomfortable state of being, and if you cannot change your situation, you must change your way of thinking to bring it in line with your situation or suffer the misery of inner conflict.

Which brings me to the rejection of feminism.

Why do so many women reject feminism when it would clearly improve their lot to be treated fairly?

Is it because they cannot easily become fairly treated individuals, not without huge conflict and arguments in their home and at work, so they decide, unconsciously, to believe that they are already treated fairly? And therefore feminism is defunct in their minds.

Intersting.

OP posts:
Sakura · 23/09/2010 04:18

Footlong, when you have been a SAHM for a few years, then and only then, do you have the right to pretend you know what's involved. I'm doing you a favour here. Your attitude is exactly the same as my fathers.

Another strand of The Big Lie is that men "work" and women don't. LOts of people fall for it; I am not one of them

Sakura · 23/09/2010 04:20

Footlong, what do you say to the fact that SAHM's go out to work for a break?

That I "farm my child out" for 2 hours in the morning so I can work. BEcause for women, mothers in particular, doing the kind of work men do all the time is a rest

Footlong · 23/09/2010 04:22

how do we fix that?

we could set up a 'retreat' the 'stay at home mums/dads' get to look after 6-7 kids, no electricity, no running water. They have to prepare all meals form base ingredients they have created, do all the washing by hand, mend all the clothes, make butter, sweep floors etc etc.. for a month, then we can out them back in thier cosy little lives and ask them if modern appliances, family sizes and services make any difference and if they now feel spoiled.

oh.. and no internet!

The working parent during the retreat can work in heavily labour intensive work for 14- 15 hours a day in the same accomodation as his/her partner.

P.S I dont need to attend this retareat, as I know I am spoilt my modern sonveniences as compared to times past.. but some of you lot need a reality check.

Sakura · 23/09/2010 04:28

Footlong, I think where you've messed up is by assuming that the shitwork is women's work, and that if a man does it he's helping out. Women divorce their men when they hit middle age because this world-view does not reflect their own: that everyone should to their own shitwork.

kickassangel. I've got to go out in a sec but will try to respond to your post later

Sakura · 23/09/2010 04:30

WHile I'm gone, I'd really appreciate it if you'd answer my last post Footlong. I'll understand if you can't Wink

"What do you say to the fact that SAHM's go out to work for a break?"

"And that I "farm my child out" for 2 hours in the morning so I can work. BEcause for women, mothers in particular, doing the kind of work men do all the time is a rest

Footlong · 23/09/2010 04:31

BEcause for women, mothers in particular, doing the kind of work men do all the time is a rest

ahh so it is ok for you to describe what men do as 'a rest', but the reverse is not ok. Nice double standard, but then again you specialise in double standards.

Footlong · 23/09/2010 04:32

Footlong, I think where you've messed up is by assuming that the shitwork is women's work, and that if a man does it he's helping out. Women divorce their men when they hit middle age because this world-view does not reflect their own: that everyone should to their own shitwork.

Except as per usual I have never said that shitwork is womans work.
You just make stuff up and then rage against straw men.

Sakura · 23/09/2010 04:35

Don'T twist my words. Answer the question. I know it's difficult but do try:

What do you say to the fact that SAHM's go out to work for a break?"

"And that I "farm my child out" for 2 hours in the morning so I can work. BEcause for women, mothers in particular, doing the kind of work men do all the time is a rest

Men have specifically designed society in a way that meant they got the light high-status , well-paid work that requires no physical labour. Physical drudgery, in the main, has always been left to women. WOmen were sent down the pits, to the factories. THe industrial revolution was built on women's cheap labour.

Footlong · 23/09/2010 04:47

I am not twisting your words, I am quoting them.

Men have specifically designed society in a way that meant they got the light high-status , well-paid work that requires no physical labour. Physical drudgery, in the main, has always been left to women. WOmen were sent down the pits, to the factories. THe industrial revolution was built on women's cheap labour.

Complete and utter paranoid deluded rubbish.

Sakura · 23/09/2010 04:53

I can find a million articles for you, but how about this one

Triangle Shirtwaist factory

If you think women's cheap labour wasn't the backbones of the industrial revolution, or that women didn't go down the pits, then you are deluded

Sakura · 23/09/2010 04:54

Remember the women in that factory would have been paid less than the men. A lot less

Sakura · 23/09/2010 04:56

women coal mine workers

Footlong · 23/09/2010 05:00

That is lame. Are we going to slowly produce one example each of men and woman working during the industrial revolution? Not even mentioning the child labour.

What a waste of time. To claim that the backbone of the undustrial revolution was female labour just shows you have no idea about the things you spout. I am genuinely amused.

Footlong · 23/09/2010 05:01

And seen as you like wiki so much.. why dont you actually read abut the industrial revolution...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution

TheBossofMe · 23/09/2010 05:06

Hmm, not wanting to sound like I'm supporting Footlong here, I think you're mistaken with your statement here Sakura:

"Men have specifically designed society in a way that meant they got the light high-status , well-paid work that requires no physical labour. "

I don't think that's true - millions of men through the ages and even now labour in jobs that are backbreakingly hard physical work. Pretty sure most coalminers were/are men, for example, not women.

Also, I think its a bit of a trap you've fallen into - you're reverting back to "work" as being work out of the home. Work in the home can physically exhausting, but its undervalued because it doesn't raise an income.

marenmj · 23/09/2010 06:56

kickassangel - we are in very similar circumstances. And I know you relocated to the US for your DH's job too. Lack of community support makes the pangs of SAHM-hood even more acute. I don't get to go to the gym or meet friends for lunch or go out for coffees without the kids (and therefore being On Duty), because I would have to pay for childcare to do those things, and though in the mental-health realm it may not be, it feels reather silly to pay a babysitter so that I can go to starbucks.

DH told me very early on the he wanted a partner, an equal, and he is particularly fond of ambitious women - he wanted a woman who wasn't interested in the stepford setup. I just don't think he really understood what that meant for him (I find men rarely think ahead to what life will be like after kids, not that women are over imaginative about it, but I think that pregnancy especially gets them invested in and planning it early).

Here's how it went for us:
-DH is older than I am, so further in his career, and when we met I was just starting mine.
-DH gets a good job offer in another town offering to nearly double his salary. I'm doing a crappy entry-level job so I quit and we move. I get another crappy entry-level job.
-DH gets a really good job offer in another town. I quit, move, get another crappy job.
-Suddenly six years and four international moves down the line, DH has a career that progresses and he makes lots and lots of money and I am still getting that same crappy job over and over again. My career and earning potential is stalled.

At each snapshot moment the decision makes sense and is not a sexist one per se. The salaries offered are fantastic and I am excited about the opportunities because the situations we will be coming to are genuinely better for both of us. I am not particularly attached to my career as I am planning to retrain for a different one (as soon as we fecking sit still long enough to attend a school Hmm). We keep all of our money joint and DH never makes me feel guilty for spending it. Of course, we are on such a tight budget right now that neither of us indulges for ourselves, so it is easily done Grin

Unfortunately the end result of the series of decisions that weren't individually sexist is that my earning potential is so ridiculously dwarfed by DH's and I want to retrain, so it is not worth it for me to expend the money and energy to get the crappy job this time. I very much like the term SAHM by stealth.

The other, less personal and more universal, side of the problem is that housework with small children (pre-school age) at home is that it absolutely IS invisible, and I don't just mean in terms of society/paychecks/etc. I mean when DH leaves the house for his work in the morning the table is wiped, the dishes are cleared, and the carpet is vacuumed. When he returns in the evening they are [mostly] the same. What is invisible is the box of cheerios strewn across the room and the chalk pictures drawn on the wall and the water scooped out of the toilet. A WOH partner simply cannot appreciate the true extent of the WAH partner's labor because they never see it - it all takes place out of their view. It's the nature of being at home, in our single-family homes. Other than communal living I really don't see a way to change that.

The final prong, and the one I choose to fisticuffs with DH about is that as creatures of habit we don't tend to notice things in our routine. It's a rare day when someone perks up and says, "hang on... my sock drawer is never without socks! someone is going to great effort to wash my socks!" if they never see the work being done. I've started to make folding clean laundry something that is done in the evening when watching tv, even though I could sort it myself quicker and easier because DH needs to see how often it's being done.

I do have hope for DH though. I complained to his sister once and she told me she was the same and it took her husband eight years to get her to really see mess the way others do. They were raised with a maid and seem to have a fundamental disconnect that if they don't clean up after themselves someone else has to clean it up. It helped a lot when I told him that not tidying up after himself was a fundamental disrespect of my time because it sends the message that he considers the time he would spend picking up his socks to be worth more than the time I would have to spend doing the same - because someone has to do it.

Having me at home during this moment in time helps us with our long-term goals as a couple (one of which is that DH wants to enable me to retrain and progress my career to the point where HE can be the SAH partner, and often talks longingly of being a SAHD), but boy do I look forward to kids in school age :)

sunny2010 · 23/09/2010 07:01

'"Men have specifically designed society in a way that meant they got the light high-status , well-paid work that requires no physical labour. '

Again I really dont think you have any clue how many men and women live even in todays society. Here I would say about 70% of men are in physical jobs labourers, gardeners, warehousing, bin men. In places I have used to live are coal miners too. I have never once met a woman that does these jobs. Not that there isnt any but definitely not many.

There are loads of men doing all these jobs right now. The simplistic way you look at it though you think every man is in the same position and is oppressing you. This isnt true it is a small proportion of men (and women) that have lives where they get good pay and interesting working conditions regardless if they are men or women.

HerBeatitude · 23/09/2010 07:24

"What do you say to the fact that SAHM's go out to work for a break?"

Are you going to answer that one Footlong?

Saying "paranoid and delusional rubbish" isn't an argument, it's an assertion.

The world over, women do more work than men and always have done. Men may currently do more of the heavy lifting stuff in Western developed societies atm but women do the relentless day in day out invisible stuff. No one notices a clean and tidy house because that's the norm, they notice the untidy messy house and assume the woman's a slattern. (Not the man.)

Why do you think the fastest growing section of society suing for divorce, is ungrateful middle aged women whose children have grown up? Do you not acknowledge that that does indicate a dissatisfaction with marriage as it is currently organised?

sunny2010 · 23/09/2010 07:40

Sakura If you married a man on a low wage you would get tax credits which is your wages. I dont do it as I think its wrong to claim when I am capable of working so mine goes on childcare. I dont think that if you stay at home you should get wages and pension as I dont think its fair on everyone else that has to go to work and hasnt got the chance to stay at home.

Kickassangel - The fact we now have so many labour saving machines is to force people in to the work place to be tax payers as the point was to make staying at home not a full time job in the way it was in the past. It is only in recent years that a housewife was not spending all day doing the washing and cleaning as there wasnt the labour saving devices. As now the machines have took away the bulk of the manual work. Now the economy is a two person wage country unless you are quite affluent or on benefits. You have to be very lucky to be in a position to have any choice at all.

Beachcomber · 23/09/2010 08:19

Very interesting thread.

I like the term SAHM by stealth - that is exactly what happened to me, and in a very similar way to marenmj.

When I met DH I had just started out as a journalist and, although working for a well known newspaper, was earning peanuts. DH (slightly older than me) was more established in his career and when he got a good opportunity in his home country (France) we upped sticks and moved.

DH continued his career path and I did a series of crappy jobs whilst I learnt the language.

Of course when it came to having kids it made sense for me to stay at home (even though I had a decent job by then I still earnt less than DH). Then we had a child with significant health problems and there was no way I could go back to work in the first year.

I am lucky in that I have been able to set up my own business with a woman friend so I don't now have to try to get back into the job market after 2 kids and a 3 year career break in a foreign country.

I think what a lot of people like Footling don't get is that being a SAHP is very wearing emotionally in the crazy west where community structure has been eroded. I wanted to look after my children when they were tiny but I didn't want to feel as though I had suddenly disappeared from society and had no status whilst I was doing it. Looking after pre-schoolers is hard tiring lonely work. Looking after school age kids is less hard but is boring, unchallenging and lonely.

In my business I give chances to women who have often been in low paid crappy jobs (like me before) and who have taken time off to have kids (you might as well when you have a crap job). We regularly take on women who have never written a CV or who have done 10 jobs in the last 2 years. We give these women a chance and we believe in them and their skills - sheesh if they can bring up kids then they can do anything. Shame most of society doesn't see it that way though.

larrygrylls · 23/09/2010 08:22

Another interpretation:

Cognitive dissonance means you cannot decide whether you are happy or not in a specific situation. It means let "us" decide for you, and if it does not meet "our" feminist interpretation of a situation in which you "should" be happy, you clearly have cognitive dissonance.

The question is who are the "we" who decide?

Now, that is clearly a little simplistic as the idea of cognitive dissonance is not 100% wrong. There are some people who probably are in abusive relationships and even (maybe) a few who suffer from Stockholm syndrome. However, generally, if someone says they are happy in a situation and argue it cogently and clearly, it means they are happy and not suffering from a psychological syndrome. Even if it is not certain people's idea of how a woman should be in a feminist world.

marenmj · 23/09/2010 08:23

"in recent years that a housewife was not spending all day doing the washing and cleaning as there wasnt the labour saving devices"

Could have fooled me. I DO spend all day cleaning and washing and the second I try to add anything vaguely recreational into the mix the house turns into a tip.

I will reiterate what others have said before - it's a little insulting to insinuate that I don't actually work all that hard all day just because I have a washing machine and my great-great-grandmother didn't Hmm

Footlong · 23/09/2010 08:31

Saying "paranoid and delusional rubbish" isn't an argument, it's an assertion.

Correct, I am not trying to convince anyone. I am stating my assertion about that particular comment.

The world over, women do more work than men and always have done.

That sounds like an assertion.

Generalised over simplified rubbish assertion, but an assertion none the less...

see thats an assertion as well....

Buts that ok, unless suddenly you have decided that only some posters are allowed to make assertions and other have to make arguments.

I imagine you are going to be very busy being the assertion police... unless you only police males on this board.... mmmm I might be on to something....

And by popular demand

"What do you say to the fact that SAHM's go out to work for a break?"

They dont need to give a reason to go out to work, who exactly are they supposed to be giving a reason to?? Each situation is different, and to make sweeping statements like some posters here like to do... well I try and avoid it (not always succesfully, but much more so than some others I could name).

sunny2010 · 23/09/2010 08:32

Agree with your last paragraph larrygrylls but a lot of feminists dont care if someone says they are happy and start telling people they shouldnt be. Like some women are happy to be prostitutes, porn stars , hooters girls or be married. Then certain feminists come out with that they cant be happy even if they say they are. It is happening right now on the aibu board on the prostitute thread.

That is precisely the reason why feminism nowadays has such an awful reputation.

Footlong · 23/09/2010 08:35

I will reiterate what others have said before - it's a little insulting to insinuate that I don't actually work all that hard all day just because I have a washing machine and my great-great-grandmother didn't

I assume you are a SAHM if so...

You think you work as hard as your ancestors? Really? Thats what you are claiming?

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