Let's talk about cognitive dissonance ...

[colditz]

My relationship with my children's father broke up because he lied about money and hit me, and I finally, after many years of misery, refused to tolerate it. But why did I tolerate it for as long as I did when I was miserable?

I believed that children need their parents to stay together and that I would not cope alone. The facts were that children do not need one parent to be abusing the other, and that my life would have been easier without him merrily fucking it up.

The stress caused by the gap between my own personal beliefs and the reality of my situation was causing an uncomfortable feeling, often described as cognitive dissonance.

Is this the reason that people who consider themselves fair minded nevertheless perpetuate an unfair system? Intelligent women who do all the housework and childcare 'because he goes to work' must see the difference between theirs and their husband's exhaustion levels - why do they accept it, and decide that 'going out to work is really hard' when they surely must remeber the time when they went out to work and had no home responsibilities as being a darned sight easier than the life they live now?

I think it's bcause cognitive dissonance is a very uncomfortable state of being, and if you cannot change your situation, you must change your way of thinking to bring it in line with your situation or suffer the misery of inner conflict.

Which brings me to the rejection of feminism.

Why do so many women reject feminism when it would clearly improve their lot to be treated fairly?

Is it because they cannot easily become fairly treated individuals, not without huge conflict and arguments in their home and at work, so they decide, unconsciously, to believe that they are already treated fairly? And therefore feminism is defunct in their minds.

Intersting.

sakura - my parents definitely started treating me as an adult when i got married, and i saw more respect once i became pregnant. when i go home to visit without dh, i once again get relegated to 'teenager' in the way that they behave towards me, and it feels the same from the ILs. there are definitely people who look at a single woman & pity her, and see her as some kind of wayward teen, rather than a woman in her own right.

but then, my parents also believe that the man is the head of the household & everyone should fit in around him. i grew up hating my dad because his needs always came first. as an adult, i actually see it was my mum more than my dad who instigated this, and i think my dad missed out on a close relationship between me & my sister because of it.

i really hate patriarchy.

Now I do agree with you there, Sunny; things like swinging can work as long as you're both agreeable to it. It is not fair to expect fidelity to be all one-way, with the bloke shagging around because "men have needs" while the wife had best not be caught even looking at another man. (Nor is it ok for a female partner to shag around while the man remains in probably-not-so blissful ignorance either, to be fair! But societal norms tend to encourage a cheated-on woman to "put up and shut up" far more than a cheated-on man. He is "a bit of a lad" and his wife is "a saint"; she is "a slut" and her husband is "weak".)

Why people change their interests just because they're married: I think we're getting to the nub of the argument now. A lot of people change their lifestyle because they've been taught this is how married people ought to live. Not because it's what they really want. Instead of saying "the hell with society's expectations, this is what works for us" they feel they should change, and then wonder why they feel vaguely dissatisfied all the time. It's because they're not living the life they were made for. We can't always have what we want, of course, but sometimes we deny ourselves for no good reason. And then we tell ourselves there was a good reason and we like it really. Is it people like this you're thinking of?

" i actually see it was my mum more than my dad who instigated this"

How did she do that kissangel? Was she conditioned to do it? Was she frightened of looking at her own needs?

SGB, I did go for the "he will do" option, because I had the nouse to understand that The One wasn't out there. I am that sex and the city is so popular. What on earth is the point spending all that time and energy finding The One, when you're going to end up going through the seven year itch any way. I also knew that being a single mother would be bloody hard work, and being a sloven disorganized person, I thought I'd be better off with the dad around, at least while they're young

Maybe an open relationship is the answer for me and DH in the future. Can'T see how it would work without one person getting jealous. I live in a culture where women and men turn a blind eye to affairs. It's nOt swinging per se, but nobody would divorce over adultery here. They probably wouldn't even bat an eyelid. I can't help thinking there's some cognitive dissonance going on. It seems so... sad and perfunctory. But the Japanese are very practical, pragmatic people

sakura - whenever i have an argument with my dad, it's me that's at fault, we only ever ate food that he liked (i never had an indian before i was 20, we weren't allowed them in the house, even if he was away), the entire family routine was built around his work timetable.

now, i get that when one person is working, they have far less flexible time than the others, but the decisions always went in his favour. my mum was brought up to do those things, all home cooked food, dinner on the table when he wanted etc. my dad also worked v hard - he believed it was his job to support the family, so he worked long hours, did all the diy, grew the family vegetables etc, in order to provide for us. both my parents grew up during/post ww2, and had the attitude that family life was about working for the family, rather than having fun. days off were a guilty pleasure.

the idea of two adults co-habiting, sharing kids etc, and each being able to maintain separate lives etc sounds great - BUT there is only so much time. dh has recently started playing golf. it can take up to 7 hours for him to get round the course & then go for a drink after. in theory, it's great that he can unwind, get some exercise, it's not too expensive. BUT there are other things to get done at the weekend, maybe i want to go out for the day while he takes care of dd, maybe the three of us should go out together, maybe there's work to do on the house etc.

so it ends up being all about compromise. my dh believes he has the right to relax at the weekend, i agree, but so do I, and how do we both get that time? no matter which decision we make, one of us is likely to feel a little put out. so how do you get the balance right? two very nice people could end up really resenting each other, just because of perceived injustices, rather than any real injustice.

"people put so much effort into making their marriages work, keeping the spark alive etc, which is important when kids are small, but when the kids have gone, why? I mean, what's the point? Why not just throw in the towel and grab the world by the horns?"

Sakura, they are! Most divorces are instigated by women. And I think I remember reading, that the biggest growing section of divorces are being instigated by women whose children have grown up and left home - so they may have been married for 20 - 30 years, everyone thinks their marriages are solid as a rock and suddenly they do up and grab the world by the horns and divorce their husbands.

When you think of the punishment that society metes out to a single, middle aged woman, in terms of the economic hit that they have to take, the fear of loneliness in old age, the loss of pension rights, the ridicule, etc., I think there is no doubt whatsoever that the fear of living in this institution for another 20 or 30 years without living first, is very very strong. You are right, there is no doubt whatsoever, that at the moment men benefit from marriage infinitely more than women do. The very fact that older women are prepared to go through divorce, is a very strong indicator that their experience of marriage, where they are supposed to be safe and strong and have status, has simply not been good enough.

'We can't always have what we want, of course, but sometimes we deny ourselves for no good reason. And then we tell ourselves there was a good reason and we like it really. Is it people like this you're thinking of?'

I have both male and female friends who dont come out, dont go to clubs, drinking, trips away, days out etc. If they didnt want to thats fine but it always starts with 'I dont really fancy it and anyway blah blah doesnt really like it'. I think its good to have a certain amount of time apart and it doesnt mean you dont like each other or arent compatible its just sometimes its good to go with your friends.

When it comes to compromise we both usually have a day every couple of weeks were one of us goes out. Sometimes I am out clubbing all weekend if there is some events I really want to go to so he takes over and does stuff he wants to do with our daughter. When I have been out I wont lift a finger as thats his job and its the other way round when he goes out. Thats good for everyone then as you get 1 to 1 time with the kids and both partners are happy. We arent out every weekend so the other weekends we spend together. I am with my daughter all week anyway and I spend hours with him every night and we like to watch dvds and chat about crap. I probably go out clubbing more than my husband but he likes things like going round and playing xbox, going gym or the football.

Kickangel if he is going out every weekend playing golf can you not go out the other day? If not maybe tell him to do it every alternate weekend? The good thing about having an active social life at night is the kids are in bed so its easier on the one that stays in and you get the time together in the day so maybe go out with friends for a meal or drinks? I am sorry your parents lived that way but there is no reason why you should put up with it.

sunny - how many DC do you have? I'm wondering whether things become more difficult for women and roles become more entrenched once subsequent DCs arrive.

I only have 1 I am waiting until the next one is at school before I have another so I dont have too much stress. I do sometimes get broody for another now but I think deep down it makes more sense for us that way as you only have 1 under 5 at a time.

sunny - he's not out every weekend, but as i'm a SAHM, there is the expectation that he can go if/when he wants, as i get 'all day to myself'. now, dd is at school most of the day, but i do all the housework, gardening & most of the diy. he doesn't in any way coerce me to do stuff all the time, but the role of sahm is not one i enjoy. however, i do use the day time to go out & meet friends, also go out in the eve, and am planning a weekend away soon. i'm not some poor oppressed wifey, BUT i just find the role of sahm quite tedious.

equally, he doesn't check up on the bank account, but i feel bad about any money i spend on myself, as i currently earn nothing. this is, i hope, a temporary arrangement due to moving to the US, if this was permanent, we would both be dissatisfied, and then what would we do about it? it's not that easy to just jump into a new job, once you're at home with kids to look after, then the hassle/cost of childcare etc starts to be a big influence.

so how does it end up that so often it is the woman who feels like this, while the man continues to work? and are the men really happy about the situation either? i wonder if some of the dissonance is just the struggle to mesh together the needs of children/family and the needs of the individual? also, why is it that so often the woman is earning less, so economically, it is her job that gets sacrificed if childcare demands (or couples chose) that one adult stays home?

i think we really need to look at the types of careers that women choose, as well as how they flourish within them. typically female careers do not generate profit, e.g. social worker etc, so they are paid less. so why do women go into those careers? is there some underlying assumption that their career will be less important so they don't have to earn as much? are men more aggressive in their careers because they feel compelled to prove their ability to support a family/succeed? and how much of this is innate or learned?

and all the time, we are raising our kids, who are watching us & learning how to behave.

'So if I'm feeling stifled in marriage, should I be grateful my marriage is okay as opposed to hell on earth, and look to the positives... or should I risk leaving because there may be an entire undiscovered world out there that I'M missing out on.'

Sakura, I think you're on a tightrope - just think really carefully before you do anything irrevocable. There are all sorts of unforeseeable consequences. Believe me I really do know what I am talking about.

Is there any other way of injecting some excitement into your life? I can understand the very safety of your relationship is like a challenge to rock the boat, but could you not go bungee-jumping instead???

I'm not being serious, but ... my sister recently left her man after 25 years. She'd been having an affair, they were discovered, she and her new man are now both separated from their spouses. What she had no idea would happen is that her boys hate her new man and blame him for everything. So they won't come and see her when he's there. So what happens at Christmas?? Oh it's a nightmare. It will get better, I know, but everyone has had to go through such pain.

By the way, I can see why my sister wanted to break away after 25 years. She felt she had served her time, and I suppose it's better than leaving when her kids were little, like I did. At least her kids (18 and 20) had a wonderful, golden childhood, which will make them strong and protect them and help them through this difficult time.

Don't know if that's at all relevant. I'm not saying to anyone that they ought to stay in a relationship that isn't giving them what they need. Don't know what I'm saying really.

You've really made me think, Sakura (and the rest of you).

Thank you Colditz for putting a name to a process I've been/am going through and for starting this discussion, and thankyou Annie for putting how I feel so clearly I felt as though I had written it myself.

I had a wonderful, happy childhood, with parents who deeply loved and respected each other and also had very traditional gender roles (carried out fairly). However, because I was brought up in an environment/community where people respected and treated each other well, it was never felt necessary to have a conversation about what is manipulative behaviour, what are red flags in a relationship, etc. As a result, I was totally unprepared for them when I encountered them.

When I was 18, my beloved mother died suddenly in my first year at university. That single event set the pattern for the role I was to play for the next 10 years or more. I became the coper, the one others leant on and who could be relied upon to sort everything out. It became a sort of personal quest to rise to meet ever more increasing challenges, and not in a martyr way (I never complained but asked myself what I could do to cope better as there were always people worse off than myself and what did I have to moan about?). As a result of this, I was an easy target for an abusive man, despite seeming to be an extremely strong, confident, practical and happy woman to everyone else.

Although my abusive XP showed many subtle red flags in the 6 years we were together before we decided to have children, I could only see them with the benefit of hindsight after educating myself about abusive relationships. After my DTs were born, I suddenly found myself still being the sole breadwinner but also the person responsible for 100% of the childcare and 90% of the domestic chores. I coped because having two newborns, leaving was something quite hard to contemplate, and, after all, I am of life's copers (a role thrust on more women than men I would argue). I know exactly what colditz is saying about cognitive dissonance because I was starting to experience it at this point. However, it was only when he tried to strangle me that I had a lightbulb moment and realised the relationship was abusive and that I had to leave for my own sake and for that of my children who I didn't want to condemn to a lifetime of unhappy relationships because they only knew how to be either a victim or an abuser. I left with literally the clothes on my back and two four-month-old babies. You'd think that would be traumatic, but it was actually one of the most liberating experiences I've ever had!

I've never looked back. 4 years later I am still single, I own my own home, have only a few friends but they are fabulous in every way, I enjoy my job and above all, life is 100x easier as a single parent than it ever was in a relationship. I love it. Yet I still have moments where I find it hard to square my self-view as strong-minded radical feminist with the victim who put up with so much rubbish. And despite knowing that it was NOT my fault that XP was abusive, I still feel ashamed for having such bad judgement and not seeing it earlier. I can rationalise this by saying that I didn't have the knowledge to make that judgement and that at least once I saw the situation clearly I did the right thing, but I still feel uncomfortable - how could it take someone like me 6+ years to see it? Feminism is helping me to come to terms with this. Until I started to learn more about it, I never realised how much our culture insidiously makes women susceptible to abuse even when, like me, they have never had the misfortune to experience it in their own formative years. And I say this not trying to absolve responsibility from myself - I am a great believer in taking control of your life and making your own happiness. There is a difference between looking at the past to see where the fault lies and blaming everyone else because you can't have the future you want.

Thanks if you got this far. {smile}

Glad you got out OptimistS - clearly the right thing to do. You had a lightbulb moment, and suddenly you could see clearly.

Having gone through all that you've been thorough, you'll be on your guard if ever any similar situations crop up and you'll see through any self-deception much more quickly. I hope things go well for you in the future.

And I agree, life for me was also much easier as a single parent. But for people who are maybe less unhappy in their marriages, if they leave they might find they are simply exchanging one set of problems for another.

It all hinges on whether they understand what it really is that is making them unhappy. People kid themselves all the time and then create the same situations over and over again.

Kickangel - I suppose it is different for us as we both earn about the same and both of us feel guilty if we spend money on ourselves so its not something either of us really do unless we make it outside of our work money such as through saving money through voucher codes, doing survey sites, buying stuff from the car boot and then ebaying etc. If we do that then we keep the money for ourselves but other than that we dont really spend that much. I do really well from all my extras though and use the money on trips away and holidays. I am a strict moneysavingexpert.com girl though. As I said before we get our tenner a week each that we are allowed to spend from our jobs but mine usually goes on mcdonalds and alcohol II am in a low earning job but I dont think my job is less important I am in one of the most rewarding jobs in the whole world.

It is also not because I have to either my husband and I were both in military and took a £13k paycut. We both like spending more time with the family and less stress. My husband cried when he had to go back to work after our little one was born so he couldnt go away on detachment. My husband doesnt like his job at the moment but is retraining to work with learning disabled youths. Its not about the money but more about the fulfilment really. I think a lot of the problems people have are caused by the pursuit of money above happiness and job fulfilment personally.

I am also lucky in the fact I get free childcare so I dont have to worry about that but that is also why I want 1 kid at a time in nursery as that means I dont have to find the £20 a week I would need if I had 2 right now.

Also social workers, teachers, child carers and carers are some of the most important jobs in the whole world. Most women do them to make a difference and change the world. (I do anyway but I am an idealist ) Money isnt the be all and end all of life for me and I will be very glad I am teaching my sons and daughters that. I am also very proud to tell people what my husband is doing as he is making a difference to young people and changing lives. It doesnt matter what he earns to us as its what he wants to do any enjoy.

If a person doesnt want to do these jobs that is fair enough but I would never persuade anyone out of them. When we were working in jobs that were better paid before and had more status we both used to waste so much money on shopping and rubbish. Since changing careers and doing my degree I have a sense of fulfilment I have never experienced before. I would love my children to work in a caring job over a profit making one and really hope thats what they choose.

HB, I often think that. On paper women lose so much from divorce. I read that upon divorce men's income goes up by 40% or so and a woman's goes down by 70%. Plus single middle-aged women are pitied etc and they still think divorce is the best option for them. IT doesn't sell marriage does it Clearly the women (who have got over their cognitive dissonance) are willing to take the financial and security risks. It makes me think women are far less conservative than men by nature. They want to seize the day, not play it safe. Maybe it's something to do with our biology. If you're pregnant there's always a possibility that death as at the end of it, or at the very least a lot of outrageous pain. I wonder how that affects a human being's sense of priorities.

grannie, I think your sisters situation was different, because of the affair. I agree that's not the right way to go. But if a woman wants to leave because she wants to live, and the children hold it against her, well..that's not her fault, that's theirs. If a woman stays to placate her children, or for her husband then she is choosing their lives over her own. IT's a shame they cannot do the same for her.

Kissangel, I think you do need to demand more of your husband. IT's in his best interest. He does not have the right to relax at the weekend. The weekend is your time for a change, so he should take the kids off your hands, at least for an entire morning. And you mustn't do housework or shopping during that time.
I am a SAHM. DH gets his pocket money and doesn't know what's going on with the rest. I am going on a holiday in a few weeks to meet up with other MNers. DH will miss out on the holiday, but he gets to feel all masculine that he's providing for his family and all that. Men need that and women can give it to them. YOu don't let him control the money as well

grannie, I meant adult children, of course. I think parents should try to stay together when the kids are small as long as the relationship is fine. Boredom is not a good reason to rip small children's lives apart.

Sakura - Your posts just make you sound jealous of people who find happiness in a marriage. I know you will claim to be happy, and I dont blame you for being in denial. But I think the sooner you get over your obvious bitterness, the happier you will be. Have you recieved therapy for the way your dysfunctional upbringing has effected your ability in later life to handle gender issues?

Footlong, the entire point of my posts are to show you I am not happy in marriage. Did you miss that part?

OMG, a woman keeps repeating again and again "I AM NOT HAPPY IN MY MARRIAGE" and Footlong comes out with
" I know you will claim to be happy, and I dont blame you for being in denial"

Are you this sensitive towards your wife, Footlong?

I said happy, not happy in marriage. I did not say you would claim to be happy in your marrige.

You appear jealous of people who are happy in marriage, because you are not happy in any facet. I could be very wrong, I am just going by the tone and content of your posts on MN. You might love who you are and where you are at, but your posts do a great job of hiding it.

Am I sensitive towards my wife? mmmmm on occasions like any other human, I have my moments of sensitivity and insensitivity. But I am very happy, I dont have angst towards anyone really, especially not my parents or wife.

"But I am very happy"

WEll...yes, Footlong, married men are the happiest people in society, followed by single women, then married women, then single men. THis has been proven over and over again. Single men are more likely to commit suicide than their married counterparts, whereas married women are more likely to be depressed than their single counterparts. YOur contribution to this thread proves the hypothesis beautifully.

why do you insist that I believe I love who I am and where I'm at? When I make no secret of the fact that my life is less than perfect?

Why would I be jealous of "happy marriages" when extensive research shows that women who claim their marriages are happy are more likely to be depressed than women who admit their marriages are less than perfect? Obviously, cognitive dissonance contributes to depression in so-called "happy marriages".

I the 1950s in the U.S the men were all happy, just like you. Their wives, on the other hand, had to take drugs just to get through the day.

actually this is good therapy. THe more Inchlong posts, the more I appreciate my husband