Let's talk about cognitive dissonance ...

[colditz]

My relationship with my children's father broke up because he lied about money and hit me, and I finally, after many years of misery, refused to tolerate it. But why did I tolerate it for as long as I did when I was miserable?

I believed that children need their parents to stay together and that I would not cope alone. The facts were that children do not need one parent to be abusing the other, and that my life would have been easier without him merrily fucking it up.

The stress caused by the gap between my own personal beliefs and the reality of my situation was causing an uncomfortable feeling, often described as cognitive dissonance.

Is this the reason that people who consider themselves fair minded nevertheless perpetuate an unfair system? Intelligent women who do all the housework and childcare 'because he goes to work' must see the difference between theirs and their husband's exhaustion levels - why do they accept it, and decide that 'going out to work is really hard' when they surely must remeber the time when they went out to work and had no home responsibilities as being a darned sight easier than the life they live now?

I think it's bcause cognitive dissonance is a very uncomfortable state of being, and if you cannot change your situation, you must change your way of thinking to bring it in line with your situation or suffer the misery of inner conflict.

Which brings me to the rejection of feminism.

Why do so many women reject feminism when it would clearly improve their lot to be treated fairly?

Is it because they cannot easily become fairly treated individuals, not without huge conflict and arguments in their home and at work, so they decide, unconsciously, to believe that they are already treated fairly? And therefore feminism is defunct in their minds.

Intersting.

Really enjoying this thread. So many interesting points of view.

The one thing I'd like to say is that I love Sunny's world view, and share it. The best things about it, in my opinion, is that she has realistic expectations of life, appreciates the moment she's living in now, and doesn't see hard work as something bad. In fact she enjoys it. I do, too. It makes me feel I'm worth something - and I don't care if no-one else values it in that way.

I understand that not seeing your situation in political terms does leave you wide open to expoitation but, unfair as it is, you probably wouldn't care if you were happy. And Sunny is happy.

Once again no-one should criticise anyone else's choices. I'm just glad that most of us do have more options than we had before.

Sunny's purpose here on MN seems to be to try to prove that feminism is unecessary and outdated.

That's great, sunny, if you are happy with the equality illusion there is today in 2010!

Yes, bit of a strange stance. I don't know where she lives, but where I live (and it's not upmarket) everybody my age with children is married.

Is sunny saying I'm wrong? I'm not sure. I am actually a sociable person and not shy. I think that other married women regard me as a little different, and that is more the problem. eg, not included in anything that goes on in the evenings/weekends/with husbands.

There is no group for single mid 30s to mid 40s mums of young(ish) children. where is that group?

Thank you Grannyonabike. We have a wealth of options available to us. I dont understand the people saying they take no responsibility for being with a man that doesnt help, dont want to work but then resent being at home. I think to a certain extent you need to go out and do what makes you happy whether thats never have kids, do 60 hours or do no hours. Its up to you and no one is stopping you.

Valiumsingleton - I am not saying your wrong I just think being married under 40 or staying married is not that common nowadays. I also think that being in a couple or being single doesnt make a difference as the man is at work all day so it doesnt matter what your marriage status is and no one gets left out as you are just there as an individual. I just think you shouldnt feel left out of baby or childrens groups as it doesnt matter to most people whether you are single or not really. Its not something we really discuss when we are together

I dont really do anything at weekend nights that involve husbands or men as at least one night is girls nights only. I am sure there are people like that out there and dont feel disheartened if you havent found them yet. I am seen as a little different as I am married so its strange for most people when they first find out but then theyrealise it doesnt make any difference what so ever.

Somehow this thread has become about bored middle-class housewives who would quite like to have a job but are too busy wiping their toddlers' chins rather more often than they need to, with a side helping of rich wives who dump their children at school, spend the day swanning around with their friends, then do a bit of pottering around once the old man comes home from work. A little bit of gumption and an optimistic outlook would solve the perceived problems of these women, I have no doubt. But it doesn't have a lot in common with the OP, which was about abuse and gross unfairness in a domestic environment, why we put up with it, how we rationalise it to ourselves. Of course not every working mother is put-upon and knackered! Of course not every man is a selfish knob who pretends he doesn't know how to use an iron! That is trivialising the debate about how such situations do exist and are perpetuated, not just by society but our own ability (sometimes) to see ourselves as worth more and to get out of it. We look at one thing (being insulted or even knocked about, for example) and see something quite different (a loving, caring partner and great dad when he's not drinking), and we hold on to that and convince ourselves to believe it. It becomes more uncomfortable to confront our own beliefs, that this is the right way to live, than to get out of a situation we're seriously unhappy in. That is not a good mental place to be, but it does happen to a lot of people - probably most of us to a greater or lesser extent - when culture, upbringing and long-held beliefs clash directly with actual experience.

If that doesn't happen to you - great. If you have the self-belief, the strength, the emotional and financial independence to get yourself out of such a situation, assuming you haven't had the luck (you may prefer to say judgement) not to get into it in the first place, I am very happy for you and I have no investment in trying to dredge up discontent where none should be. Saying why don't other people just not put up with it, though, shows a startling lack of understanding. It's like saying well if there's no food in Mozambique, or half Pakistan is under water, why don't these people just hop on a plane and go somewhere better? Mostly, because they can't; occasionally, because they don't realise they can. Standing on the margins of the water, watching someone drowning and saying well they should have learned to swim, is a bit, shall we say, unempathetic, is that a word?

"dont understand the people saying they take no responsibility for being with a man that doesnt help, dont want to work but then resent being at home"

Nobody has said anything like that.

I totally agree with Annie's post. I do not understand what you are trying to prove here Sunny. That everyone should go and live over the rainbow like you do? That we shouldn't try to find out why cognitive dissonance exists and what the dynamics are that lead to it?

You seem to have a real objection to people exploring topics thoughtfully. Sorry but I find it very boring as well as woefully inadequate, to reduce everything to: well it's all everyone else's bad choices and their own fault if they're not as happy as I am. It just doesn't begin to address unhappiness, which is what this thread is about.

"Saying why don't other people just not put up with it, though, shows a startling lack of understanding. It's like saying well if there's no food in Mozambique, or half Pakistan is under water, why don't these people just hop on a plane and go somewhere better? Mostly, because they can't; occasionally, because they don't realise they can. Standing on the margins of the water, watching someone drowning and saying well they should have learned to swim, is a bit, shall we say, unempathetic, is that a word?"

Oh I am unsympathetic though. Deeply unsympathetic. The comparison with Mozambique and Pakistan is entirely false. Women in the UK have access to free healthcare, are educated equally and have hard-won rights of equality in the workplace. There is simply no need to become second-class citizens unless of course women choose to. And if you make that sort of choice, then frankly, women are selling themselves short.

I think the rejection of feminism came before they ended up selling themselves short. It's causative.

Quattro, if you don't realise that you've sold yourself short though, if you've rationalised decisions, if you've copied behaviours from your upbringing or from socialisation, if you've created a philosophy that supports inequality while fully embracing feminism in the whole, that's where the cognitive dissonance has occurred.

It's not a case of believing either a) I'm a feminist and therefore everything is equal, or b) I reject feminism and therefore I serve man.

Very interesting topic.

Before I was married to xdh we ahd been together for about 5 years, we were both independent - had our own houses, had good jobs, paid our own bills and shared decision making (I think).

When you got married, suddenly we both behaved like 'married people' and took on traditional roles patterned on the way our parents behaved rather than the way our relationship had worked. We had a joint account (which he controlled), we had a cleaner but it was my responsibility to organise domestic things, I took on responsibility for food and cooking, I worked but my work and income was always seen as secondary, and he became clearly the 'head of the household'

I really can't understand why I behaved that way, it was not at all like my personality, it was not how our relationship had worked (well) for the previous 5 years, and it did not align with my personal beliefs. Cognitive Dissonance? Oh yes. Bucketloads.

Things became more and more difficult as my career developed and xh felt more challenged and less in control. The more I developed, the more he tried to control me. I was confident at work, yet a weak scared mouse at home. Living a life that was at odds with my values was difficult and I became very depressed.

Thankfully the dissonance eventually became too great and I left him. Although his controlling behaviour was awful, I had become accepting of that and I put up with it. Si it was not his behaviour that spurred me to leave, it was my own internally generated feelings because the life I was living was so much at odds with my beliefs.

So those of you who keep insisting that it's all very simple, and women who find themselves having fallen into the trap of cognitive dissonance, can you explain the simple reason why they choose to sell themselves short?

Thank you for your patience, Wastingaway, because (as you have observed) I simply don't geddit.

Take Venusandmars' case. Here is a woman who was selling herself short, realised what was happening, and shipped out. Entirely rational and self-aware behaviour.

And for me there really aren't shades of grey here. The alternatives all seem fairly clear cut to me. So the alternatives seem to me to be:

1. You don't stand any nonsense
2. You stand the nonsense and feel unhappy (in which case the VenusandMars solution seems fairly clearcut)
3. You stand the nonsense and feel happy because you feel that you should be a second-class citizen

The grouping in (3) were never feminists. The grouping in (1) were never anything else. So it's the grouping in (2) that seem to have the issues. So why doesn't everyone just opt out of that position? We all still have choices. Luckily.

The realisation of what has happened can take a long time to come, and like venus, the bullshit can have started after years of equality.

If you love someone and you know full well that they didn't set out with a plan to take advantage any more than you had a plan to be taken advantage of, it's hard to ... rock the boat.

But Quattro - the grouping of 2 is the interesting group. As you say, the others are quite clear-cut.

And the grouping 2 is where the influences outside the relationship, social, emotional, psychological etc. come in. How long it takes you to realise what is going on - two months, two years, ten years etc. - is down to so many factors and cognitive dissonance plays its part in ensuring that moment of realisation is put off for as long as possible.

And I do think this thread hasn't delved yet enough into men's inbuilt sense of entitlement. We've once again concentrated on women's behaviour, not men's - what about their cognitive dissonance? How do they get round the fact tht they say they love, erspect and cherish their partner, that she's their rock, that family is the most important thing in their life and yet they are willing to see her as their skivvy? How do they square that?

As Wasting says, most men do not set out to exploit their partners. Ask a 25 year old man in love, if he thinks that in 12 years time he will be freeloading off his partner, opting out of his fair share of the housework and justifying it on the basis that he earns more. and he simply won't believe you. Indeed he'd be horrified and indignant that you would suggest such a thing.

So how do both of them fall into that trap? It simply cannot be because one is purely a selfish bastard and was so all along, and one is a dumb fuck and having children exposed that. That simply won't do as an explanation. I'm not happy with it.

Oh. I haven't read it all but this thread is depressing.

Being miserable is not an interesting state of being. It's just miserable.

Okay, I buy it that the grouping in (2) put off their lightbulb moment, and that this is what this thread is concerned with.

But it's woolly thinking though. You work out what is happening and why. So you don't allow yourself to be deceived. No?

Quattro, unfortunately in describing my situation in a couple of paragraphs, I have made it sound all too simple. You posted "Here is a woman who was selling herself short, realised what was happening, and shipped out. Entirely rational and self-aware behaviour."

Well it took seven years. Seven years when I was not allowed to spend any money, seven years when I didn't get any choice about having sex, seven years during which my confidence slipped away on a daily basis until I was scared to do anything much at home.

And I was fortunate, I had a job and earning potential, I had supportive friends, and once I had left my confidence returned quickly. But it was not easy, my parents thought that I should put up with things even though they knew I was desperately unhappy, many in our community thought I had the 'perfect life' and they were waiting for me to come to my senses and go back. I didn't leave until I'd got to a place of terrible desperation, and I was shit-scared that xh would use his only remaining means of control by taking the dcs away from me.

I can understand only too well why many women do not ever manage to leave (or get their dp to leave).

"You work out what is happenign and why"

Um, if life was that simple, there would be no such thing as abuse ever, in any relationship, would there?

Because no one wants to be an abuser. Most abusers think of themselves as decent, well-meaning people. If they worked out that they aren't and why, they'd stop abusing. And if their victims worked out that they were being abused adn why, they'd leave and not take up with another abuser.

It's precisely becuase people can't work out what's happening and why, that you get cognitive dissonance.

I have been thinking about this recently. My dh and I are both qualified to post-grad, and he'll even admit freely that I'm the 'brains of the family' yet he squares this with thinking he must always be involved in higher thought/ pursuit than I am with baby-minding, cleaning etc.

It's crept up and up. I am not one to play to the infantile man rountine, yet years in he persists with this I don't know how to bathe the baby/ find x/ use the washing machine etc. act. He's been met with a brick wall over the years. I don't get wound up, simply reply 'I'm sure you'll find it if you look again/ the washing machine is quite simple if you look at the buttons, if you're still stuck match the button to the clothes labels/ don't be negative, ds will love someone else to bathe him'- ad nuaseum. I don't get up and do it myself which is the aim, yet it's STILL a daily issue. How hard-wired must it be? He does get quite wound up with my replies. He is absolutely blind to it.

It smacks of a lack of respect to me.

It can often be because they have experienced abuse in their childood. In those cases the person needs to realise that it is highly unlikely they are going to pick a decent partner and go for counselling before embarking on a serious relationship. This should be more adviced by GPs and the NHS.

I dont think in general people just change. It is usually evident from the start when you look at peoples relationships to tell which will be abusive regardless of what the man or woman says. If someone thinks most men have a sense of entitlement etc then its likely that the people they end up with will match their preconceptions which then perpetuates the problem. Eg all the women that say men are wankers then end up with exactly the same kind of bloke over and over again and they say it will be different this time.

In relationships where either party hasnt experienced abuse then a lot must be because they didnt set out expectations early as I said. Like with me with ironing I said at the start I wont do it ever. Now if anyone brings it up I just say you know I dont do that and I just wouldnt do it. If it means walking outside the house looking like I have just emerged from a swamp and people at work ask why I look such a state then so be it. I refuse to ever back down on things but I am a stubborn cow . There is a fair few things I will never do in the home and my husband has his own list. As we know what we both will consider doing then we dont expect the other one to do it.

Oh well done, strawberrycake, keep it up.
I found myself with a shiny new master's degree staying home, looking after dcs, cooking for a houseful of people including dp's mother, brothers and sisters who would drop in for the weekend without warning.
When I finally scraped together the confidence to go out to work, MIL (long divorced and being strung along by a MM) wrote me a letter saying feminism was all very well but if I wanted to keep my man I should give it up.
When I started to stand up for myself, DP told me if I wanted us to stay together I would have to leave my job and get pregnant again.
When we split up he wanted to keep the dcs but appealed to my father who being deeply chauvinistic said, "Young children need to be with their mother."
So I took the children and left him--and shortly afterwards got into an emotionally abusive relationship that went on for years.
It's all like some horrible parody but sadly it was real.

It IS lack of respect. And it's all very well for someone who has had an upbringing that has ensured they have high self-esteem and confidence in themselves. But when you have been trained by your family to see that the other partner is more entitled than you are to do less, well it's damned hard to get out of that by youself.

And if you are a woman with no job, and small children, with an entitled man as your partner, then how do you even begin to think about leaving?

In my case it has taken 50 years to see the light....50 years!!

You lucky, lucky women who have these perfect lives with no cognitive dissonance in them. I envy you, and in fact this thread has made me feel very bad, because I thought that finally I had found myself, and you are now telling me that my whole life has been my own fault!!!

And I have worked outside the home my whole life. I didn't even have time off after my two children as I am self employed. I am reasonably inteligent, and all the rest....but I have suffered the results of this dissonance which has left me in psycotherapy!!!

Those of you have wonderful lives and super helpful partners, please have some empathy for those of us whose life has been a complete struggle.

"It can often be because they have experienced abuse in their childood. In those cases the person needs to realise that it is highly unlikely they are going to pick a decent partner and go for counselling before embarking on a serious relationship"

FFS Sunny...if you grow up in an abusive household you don't realise you need help....to you THAT IS NORMAL.

Do you have no insight whatsoever?

That is exactly WHY you end up with clones of your father or mother as a partner...because THAT WAS NORMAL TO YOU.

How are you supposed to 'realise' this?????

You'll have to forgive me for being thick about this.

But why, if you are feeling unhappy, do you not sit down and work out why? Or does the thought process constitute - well life is just like that?