Let's talk about cognitive dissonance ...

[colditz]

My relationship with my children's father broke up because he lied about money and hit me, and I finally, after many years of misery, refused to tolerate it. But why did I tolerate it for as long as I did when I was miserable?

I believed that children need their parents to stay together and that I would not cope alone. The facts were that children do not need one parent to be abusing the other, and that my life would have been easier without him merrily fucking it up.

The stress caused by the gap between my own personal beliefs and the reality of my situation was causing an uncomfortable feeling, often described as cognitive dissonance.

Is this the reason that people who consider themselves fair minded nevertheless perpetuate an unfair system? Intelligent women who do all the housework and childcare 'because he goes to work' must see the difference between theirs and their husband's exhaustion levels - why do they accept it, and decide that 'going out to work is really hard' when they surely must remeber the time when they went out to work and had no home responsibilities as being a darned sight easier than the life they live now?

I think it's bcause cognitive dissonance is a very uncomfortable state of being, and if you cannot change your situation, you must change your way of thinking to bring it in line with your situation or suffer the misery of inner conflict.

Which brings me to the rejection of feminism.

Why do so many women reject feminism when it would clearly improve their lot to be treated fairly?

Is it because they cannot easily become fairly treated individuals, not without huge conflict and arguments in their home and at work, so they decide, unconsciously, to believe that they are already treated fairly? And therefore feminism is defunct in their minds.

Intersting.

sunny, I think I've only just "got" that you've been trying to tell me I don't know what real hard work is LOL.
My mum earned a lot, but she spent a hell of a lot too. So coupled with the fact there were five kids, it didn't leave much spare. Because of her high wage I got no help for university from the government, but at the same time my mum had no cash to give me. I had to work in so many shit jobs to put myself through uni that you would not believe, but SAHMing is a different kettle of fish.

'
Hand on heart, society rewarded me more for that job, that they do for SAHMing. Firstly, because it was paid, secondly I had somewhere I had to be, thirdly because I had people to chat to, a change of atmosphere, fourthly because when it was completed, it was over and people could see what you had done, so sense of achievement etc. CHild-rearing is nothing like that. It is harder.'

Before you had kids didnt your husband come home and say thanks for doing the washing up hoovering etc? Surely that is normal. My husband has always texted me when I do a job to thank me for it before kids and after. If he didnt I would of booted him out. Thats what I mean about it being obvious before kids

Sakura - I dont think many people in this country no what real hard work is. I know I dont

yes, I did not marry a man like my father (or Footlong) . That was a pragmatic decision. I value child-rearing, and designed my life in a way that I would be able to do it myself, having learned from my mother's mistakes. I do not blame my mother for the fact my dad was sexist and the only way she could get any respect was by doing paid work.
The big problem I have is that I am economically dependant on my husband, which puts me in a position of weakness. If I found out tomorrow he'd been sleeping with his secretary I would be up shit creek. Not saying he's going to, or that I think he will, but it's naive to ignore the power imbalances.

sunny, believe me, what you are doing is hard work, no matter what society tells you. In most countries over the world, especially poor countries, no women are expected to raise children alone in a cell home, isolated from everyone. Why do you think the housewives were all on drugs in the 1950s? It's utterly soul-destroying to be told that your job is insignificant in the eyes of society, or that what you are doing isn't even work, but leisure.

It's fine when that's what you want to do with your life, and you have a partner who shares your values. No-one here, I'm sure, is going to tell you you shouldn't be wanting what you have. I hope you realise, though, that because this works for you, that does not mean everyone should be content with the same lifestyle, or could if they wanted to. I don't think your contentment with life is based on a false view; you've found something you like doing and you put the work in to keep it all running. The thing I think you're missing, though, is a bit of compassion for people who find themselves in a different situation than what they planned or expected. You never know what's around the corner. For example you could have a child with SN who requires 24 hour care. Or your partner could go down with an illness or depression and be unable to either work or help much with the family, or bugger off with someone from work - that happens sometimes however well you believe you know somebody. You're a smart and resourceful person so I dare say you'd cope, but things would be different, more difficult, and it would not be your fault.

Similarly, because you are brought up to be independent and strong-minded, you have little patience or understanding for people who don't have that advantage. By the sound of it, your parents gave you a great start with a sense of self-worth, a strong work ethic and the example of a good relationship. On the other hand, someone who had been brought up for 20 or so years to consider themselves worthless, who had not been taught useful life skills, or whose parents provided a very bad example of partnerships, has a long journey to unlearn all that bad stuff before they know what they should be looking for, let alone know how to get it or even believe they deserve it. These people, more often but not exclusively women, will make a number of mistakes which I suppose technically you can say are their bad choices, but they didn't have the equipment to make good ones. Despising them really doesn't help them to break out of it. It just grinds them further down. Doesn't it make you cry for the girls who go limping back to their parents for help in getting away from a horrible marriage, only to be told by their own parents (who they love and trust) that "you've made your bed, now you must lie in it"?

The problem a lot of women have is that they are brought up to believe what they should want out of life, and when it doesn't satisfy them they wonder what is wrong with them. Nothing actually; they're just trying to fit a square peg in a round hole because they've been taught that all holes must be round and that square pegs are naughty.

Colditz, I don't have time to read all the replies, but like you, I tolerated a shit relationship for years and I do wonder why now that the bag has been lifted off my head. I think it was partly the distorted mindset which made me rationalise all sorts of unacceptable behaviour, but it was also just plain fear of change and starting again.

I think people can rationalise anything now. Men (for example here on this thread) can abandon their kids, refuse to pay maintenance, try to strangle their partner, all of this, more, and yet not feel guilt.

apparently the most frightening word for human beings is change. I believe it.

Yes. People told me I was brave when I left my x.

And although it did take a lot of bravery at the time, I later realised that I left only after the point at which whatever I ended up doing, wherever I ended up, it could not possibly be any worse.

It would have been brave, properly brave, to have left before that point.

the big problem I have with sunny's views is that they depoliticize women: the idea that if women could just try harder, or compared themselves to people worse off than them etc (although as you can see I have done a pretty grim job, which gave me more reward in society's eyes than child-rearing for free) then we could all just be happy. THat is the core of cognitive dissonance. Women have to get angry or analyze or look at the unfairness in their lives if they are to change anything. It's no coincidence that in the study of women's depression, women who described themselves as being "happily married" were the most depressed out of all the women

put up and shut up little women.......

x post. Yes valium, it was brave to change your life. change is awful because you have to accep that your life is not perfect or how you wanted it to turn out and that shift of mental state makes you vulnerable

Sakura - No one is forced to look after kids on their own in a home. You go out you see people and they help and most communities in the UK are bursting to help others in difficult situations. I have been involved in loads of free services for mums and dads and they are universally available at present. Homestart, Surestart, groups at the Church, village halls, facebook groups, netmums etc. There is no need to be alone when you are mum. It is often the start of one of the busiest social periods of your life as you meet so many new mums and dads.

Yes, it's the moment when you have to face up to the fact that there isn't enough glue in the World to fix it.

You can cruise in denial, anaesthetising yourself to the truth, and that's easier in the short term, but the danger is, that you anaesthetise yourself to get through the days, but then you're paralysed and can't change the future either. If that makes sense.

Sunny...where do you live?

I know..I think that's why my mother flipped and threw everything into her career. I think she was running away from my father's attitude, when what she should have done was divorce him, but I think she though divorced women were failures - cognitive dissonance

Sakura - Isnt it something like 60% of teh worlds population live on less than 2 dollars a day? My husband and I even though we are on minimumish wage jobs are amongst some of the most priviledged people in the world. The vast majority of the UK is. I know I am extremely lucky to be able to have a life with luxuries like mine and I have no reason to get angry or be upset about unfairness. You can tell me my jobs as hard as you like but I still wouldnt find it hard. Everyone finds different things hard I found attempting to drive way, way harder than doing my degree but my husband thinks its easy to drive and finds it hard doing retake GCSEs etc. Everyone has different skills so if you dont suit being at home then go for a man that likes to stay at home or go to work and put the child in childcare then you support someone like me in doing something I want to do.

If people are frustrated being at home with the kids then why dont they just go to work (SN kids obviously different). We have those choices nowadays. I couldnt care less if someone did 80 hours and their kid was brought up by a nanny or did no hours. They are all the same to me and I think some people put these pressures on themselves.

gettingagrip - I have lived in different areas of the Midlands, Newcastle, Home counties (this one was through work), Bristol and now Devon.

Sunny, If you fit in, it can be sociable. society is totally couple-centric. In to the ark we all must trot, two by two. and if not, we need to be fixed or pitied or if we're very young, looked down on.

Baby groups are the beginning of the fairy story, the hardest time of all to be the single one........?

I don't really fit in anywhere, school gate, 'homestart'........ I take my children to church adn they were christened, as I don't want MY shabbiness to rubb off on them, but I feel a bit ashamed that I never married and that I'm the only single adult with children. I hold my head up high and I get on with it. But opportunities to socialise with and meet other mothers who are roughly my age and whose relationships have broken down.. there is NO such organisation locally.

There are lots of single parents on mumsnet mind you. I fit in here I think!, btu there's nothing in real life. No group where I get a break from being the single one in a world of couples.

like 60% of teh worlds population live on less than 2 dollars a day

well yes but they're economy is different, so rent might be 10 dollars a month.

Tesco pays women 38p an hour in South Africa to pick fruit. The CEO of tesco (a man, suprise suprise) earns millions every year. I reckon he thinks his work is harder than hers and pays her accordingly

Valium I am the only married person in my baby groups. I dont hang around with anyone that is married and I have massive social groups. I still fit in though. It is not normal to find married people around you nowadays unless its your parents generation. Everyone always says how weird that I am married and stuff and old people respect it. I have one friend that isnt a single mum but hey cohabit. I hang around with about 15 or so single mums and I am the only one that is now or has ever been married.

"If people are frustrated being at home with the kids then why dont they just go to work "

Yes, my mum did that. We had money to buy things we did not need, but she was no happier because she had cognitive dissonance.

And you can't tell women to run away from their problems, or from society. Society is wrong to devalue child-rearing. Pretend that devaluing child-rearing is ok, women should suck it up and go to work if they're that bothered is not a view I share. I think society should change, not force mothers to fit like a square peg into a round hole

'Why don't they just go to work?' that'd be the cognitive dissonance then.
Sunny, I'm glad you enjoy your life, but that doesn't mean that everyone can be like you.

Also there's a difference between a job being easy and being enjoyable. Musicians and actors work very hard, but they enjoy it. You work hard and enjoy it too.
The 'hardest' job for me personally was piss easy sitting on bum call centre work as it was so utterly soul-destroying.

Footlong you might enjoy The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf. Going to the gym is part of the 'work' of being a woman in our society.

Footlong

You took objection to me saying:

"For you footlong - because you don't think that your wife is "working" at home."

You said:

"I never said that. But it does seem common around her to insert words and meanings into other peoples post to suit a straw man argument."

From your post at Fri 17-Sep-10 02:02:31.

"Equally gender is irrelevant if I was staying at home and the wife was working, I think she should relax after getting home, in fact I would feel guilty if she didnt."

Footlong - your wife is working at home - but the meaning in your sentence above is crystal clear - you don't think she is working.