A different viewpoint on Choice Feminism

[GothAnneGeddes]

This is taken from a website called FWD, or feminists with disabilities.

It argues that not all women can access the same choices, hence not all choices can be viewed equally. Well worth reading.

I took it to mean that she was arguing against "non choice feminists" - whoever they may be - as well.

In that choice feminists say that women can choose what they want to do and any choice they make is fine.

Then non choice feminists (do they have a name?) say that some choices are not feminist choices.

Then the author is upset because some women are, for whatever reason, unable to make the "correct" choice as designated by the "non choice feminists". Thus she is saying that "non choice feminists" are wrong as they are excluding any women who aren't able to make the choices in the first place.

That was how I read it anyway

sort of, but only using that as an argument that choice feminism is bolleaux because some of the supposed choices aren't choices (limited not because of patriarchy but by other circs)

it's the same argument, just presented differently. saying it matters bugger all whether the choices are defined by men, because they still aren't choices that some women can make. whether they want to or not. whether they have been defined by men or not.

i think it would be really interesting for you to post some feminist articles considering choice from a non-able-bodied/ non-white viewpoint on her blog tbh.

i can't remember the bit in the whole woman where disability is discussed tbh - but will try and dig it out later if i have time. it would be really great to start that discussion with her again - and once more, how sad that a feminist is once again raising issues that have been done over and over and over, with no ground being made in society. very sad.

What Nick of Time is saying. You've described what I was thinking totally.

I think we're getting on to patriachy vs kyriachy here.

Sorry, it's spelt kyriarchy and here is a good definition of the word feministphilosophers.wordpress.com/2008/05/01/word-of-the-day-kyriarchy/.

I think kyriarchy has been discussed here before. Does anyone think we need a need a thread on it?

i missed the last discussion, but it looks interesting - not come across it before. will have a look later on.

dittany - it obviously does matter to some women. those who don't fit the white middle class able-bodied norm. she's just ticked because this aspect of feminism is excluding her. and she's a woman. who identifies as a feminist. like you.

Dittany - I'm a bit concerned at you denying this woman's lived experiences.

The website is called Feminists with Disabilities, so yes, I think she may well have felt excluded by mainstream feminism.

Are the examples of exclusion that she's given, her own lived experiences? That these things have happened to her and feminists have said that she has done the wrong thing?

Surely her point would have been better made without a load of inflamatory examples citing views as "feminist" that feminists don't generally hold?

Why not just say why she is pissed off rather than accusing feminists of turning their backs on the plight of abused children to try to make her point?

I suppose I get upset about this as I think that she is basically casting aside the whole of feminism - "choice" and "non-choice" together - on the basis that they stand for things which I don't know that they stand for?

I think that she has a good point about people being aware that not everyone is in the same situation - but you'd have to be pretty dim not +to realise that, surely-?

If feminists are so focused on the concerns of white non-disabled mc women etc then why do they try and help other groups?

Sorry for typing baby all over keyboard.

GothAnneGeddes, I hadn't heard the term kyriarchy before, and I like it. I think it gets closer to the truth than patriarchy. But I don't think there is really a need to invent a new term like kyriarchy, when it is really just another term for oligarchy, which I think is really at the heart of the issue.

a good article i feel.
i can see what she s saying and i agree up to a point.

i agree with isnt-
[if feminists are so focused.....then why do they try and help other groups]
but in this[i feel]there is problems-like-
theres a diffrence[i feel]between others helping others and others helping others but not really[sometimes]understanding others-

and-sometimes when others are helping others-
the people who they are trying to help actually can end up being less heard[and therefore actually more unequel]

and also-why cant the people being helped actually have their own voice heard-why is it that[sometimes]it can seem like the only voices that are "allowed"to be heard is the voices of people helping others?

i feel there will only be true equality when everyone hears each other and stand side by side.

Yes I agree with that Sparky.

dittany, it doesn't matter who the choices are defined by if they are not choices you are able to make. this woman does not even fit into that narrowly defined choice spectrum, so whether the choices are defined by men or not they are irrelevant - to her.

if you are able theoretically to decide whether to comply with the woman as sex-object thing, then you have the luxury of deciding whether to be pissed at the men that have defined that as an option for you. if you can't comply with the role anyway, then it's a bit pointless getting excited over it from a personal pov. of course, looking at it through a wider societal lens, you can see it does affect able-bodied women. but that's not the lens she's using, is it? it's the lens of the white mc feminist that wants to help you...

it's chicken and egg.

and the 'helpful' thing is verging on patronising tbh, i agree, sparky.

So now I shouldn't give money to charity?

Shall we cancel the idea we had on the other thread to have a charity of the month? Shitty patronising idea, I guess.

I didn't realise that sparky had said I was patronising.

I didn't read it like that at all, I agreed with her. I thought sparky had a good point.

I am feeling very attacked here.

Is it the case that because I am white and middle class, any ideas I have are automatically worthless and offensive?