What would a more woman-friendly working world look like?

[CookieMonster1980]

I've never posted before, but have been lurking for a while, and I've really enjoyed reading this section of MN, so hi everyone...I'm a bit nervous about this, but here goes:

I'm on maternity leave at the moment with my first DS, but talking to my work about going back. Stemming from this, I have some rambling thoughts which I shall doubtless make in a very ineloquent fashion.

Talking to my friends, I would say that it seems as if, although employers are happy for the us to return, there's an acceptance amongst the mums that, (for a few years at least), this will involve having to take on some less interesting work, be willing to take a back seat, not go after promotion, in order to be home in time to pick up the children and to guarantee that that can happen every day. However, we're all going back, not just for financial reasons, but also because we think that to take a longer break to bring up our children makes it increasingly difficult to return to work after several years out. These are decisions women are making.

Equally, if you're part time, or need to leave early to do the nursery run, or work from home regularly, you are more likely to be seen by work as not pulling your weight, and as a result will be more likely to be passed over for promotions, pay rises and good roles. So, the employer's attitude compounds the decisions women have already made. [My thinking here is possibly biased by having worked in the City, where really if you aren't sat at your desk to all hours, you aren't working. Working at home is still seen by many people as an excuse to be slack. And there's also the guilt of the woman, who has to leave her still very young child to go back to work (probably for financial reasons), but may also be made to feel like she's not contributing equally at work either. It may well be different in other areas of work - it would be interesting to hear - but apologies if I've made my experiences sound like they can be generalised to all areas of working life]

Clearly in many professions, the situation is far improved from even 10 years ago, and technology makes working at home so much more straightforward. Also, if you're part time, you are literally only making a % of the contribution that a full time employee is, and I understand that. But I think there's also the future contribution you're making in raising a child who will eventually contribute to the economy themselves, to the benefit of everyone - but women are permanently (see the pay differentials between men and women) disadvantaged for doing so. Maybe this is an acceptable trade-off?

I guess my thinking was that the whole working environment was moulded when it really was just men and so making allowances for women and maternity leave just didn't come into it. This isn't supposed to be a "can we have it all?" question, or a whinge about how difficult it all is. More of a slightly theoretical - should we accept a trade off of having less of a career in order to raise our children, or, if it doesn't really work in the current structures of working life, what does a more "balanced" working world look like? Or, how do we make raising a child an acceptable career choice?

That may not be very coherent at all, but what do you think?

just typed a MASSSIVE post and lost it
Aaaargh

Dont' have much time right now as I'm at work but a few random thoughts.

I think that the gender pay gap starts pretty much at the point of entry and can't be put down to motherhood although parenthood certainly exacerbates it.

Taking time out of work for reasons other than maternity leave doesn't always affect your career negatively and can often be seen as positive. For example DH has had three gap "years" (one was actually two years) and it has not had any impact on his career. If anything it has been seen as enhancing his CV and he includes them and talks about them at interviews. I doubt there are many women who are able to do such a good sell on four years of maternity leave/SAH motherhood as far as employers are concerned.

In terms of a more flexible work environment, this would benefit everyone, parents and single people alike. I think that if fathers did more of the pick ups and drop offs to nursery, covered sickness etc it wouldn't be such a big deal that parents need more flexibility and wouldn't automatically mean discrimination against women.

A very interesting question. I shall have a ponder, but the thing that immediately springs to mind is creches in the workplace as standard. Maybe even up to pre-school age although maybe it would be better for children to get to know other children local to their future school.

You're right, it shouldn't be so difficult to continue working and raise children should you wish to do both concurrently. I certainly have more to give after having children, in terms of dedication, patience and confidence.

Imagine a world where either the mother or father dropped off their child into the workplace creche, was allowed to spend some time with their child during the working day without being deemed as slacking and productivity was appreciated, not the amount of hours spent at your desk. I think more would get done and morale would be higher. I certainly managed to get my degree finished far more efficiently when I had windows of time between school runs and breastfeeding than when I had every evening and weekend to myself.

Going back to your OP, I think the current structures need to be radically changed. There should not really need to be a balance, more of a natural integration and respect between working life and family life.

Happysmiley - I agree re the difference in the way time out is viewed: constructive career break vs maternity leave. Certainly mine has been viewed as something akin to an extended holiday, while I actually feel that, like MBHDN, I've learnt some very valuable lessons. I feel this is to do with motherhood being undervalued as a whole, rather than seen as a valid contribution to the economy (and society) - but I have no real idea how you would go about changing this.

Also agree with fathers doing more of the nursery pick-ups etc. A workplace creche sounds interesting - you could have time out during the day to be with your child. It might make offices much more of a community - most of the time in my office you could easily forget that people have families at home.

I do think the standard 9-5 would have to be completely rethought, and as happysmiley says, I would have thought men would appreciate this just as much (I know one guy who takes 2 hours at lunch to go to the gym, and makes up the time later in the evening, and this passes without comment). I think the emphasis currently is too much on trying to work out how to juggle work life and family life as though they were should never impact each other, without appreciating that it's the same person trying to do both things.

Fathers doing more is an absolute must. Society needs to stop seeing childcare as a woman's issue. If men were taking time out to look after children, going p-t, and leaving early, I guarantee you it would not be the issue it is today.

1. Work judged on delivery not hours in the office
2. Paternal involvement in childcare responsibilities (nursery drop offs, longer paternity leave, flexitime standard option for men)
3. Ability to return to professional careers after career break...
4. Ability to pause a career (man or woman) during early years.. and then re-start going to promotions, without this being considered negatively.
5. Having kids considered a 'parental' issue not a 'female' issue

Just to add to the good suggestions above:

1. Increased paternity leave/"parental leave" for both parents to share between them as they see fit
2. More high quality part time working and job share opportunities for both men and women
3. Equal pay audits in both public and private sector
4. More employers offering creches or support towards childcare (my employer pays half of my childcare costs and would pay 75% if I were a single parent - it's an incredible benefit that really does make a difference in terms of a woman's ability to return to work after having children)
5. More men taking up their entitlement for flexible working (very few ask for it and I think twice as many men are turned down as women when they do request it)
6. Improved careers advice in schools and improved recruitment procedures by employers to try to encourage more women into traditionally male sectors like science, engineering and technology.

Ummm, I'm sure there are lots more but my brain's not working very well today

"I do think the standard 9-5 would have to be completely rethought"

Actually, what would make an enormous difference is if "the standard 9-5" meant just that! Providing you don't have a massive commute, those are actually fairly family-friendly hours to work, the trouble is, these days when they say "9-5" what they actually mean is "8-7 or more and we will look askance at anyone who actually has the temerity to leave the office at 5pm"!