financial exploitation in a relationship

[foreverastudent]

Was chatting to an old friend recently and was quite shocked by what she told me about the financial dynamics of her relationship of 8 years.

Both are graduates in their 30s. She earns c. £25k, him c. £30k. She isn't very good with money and has old debts of a few 1000s.

They were both privately renting when they met. After a couple of years she was offered a Housing Association flat. They moved into it together.

A couple of years ago his Mum died (Dad already gone) and left him her house, his childhood home. He didnt want to sell it so they moved into it, even though it is 30 miles away from where she works (and is ever likely to get work). She assigned her HA flat to one of his friends.

Both her and her parents have spent money on home improvements. She contributes 1/2 the household bills and pays out quite a lot in petrol commuting to work every day.

Despite this he says he doesn't want to marry her in case they divorce and she gets half his Mum's house. She has no rights to live in his house and lives with the threat that he can throw her out on the street on a whim.

Because she earns less and has debt repayments to make every month (he doesn't make any payments towards these) sometimes she is short and so puts their joint shopping bill on her credit card!

She has no pension/savings and can't get onto the property ladder because he wont move/sell and get a joint mortgage. (Where they live is cheap-if she lived alone she could buy a small 1 bed on her salary). Meanwhile he is sitting on amortgage-free house and puts away £500pcm into his own savings account.

Sorry for long post but this is financial exploitation/abuse isn't it? She knows that I was a bit about her situation but what can I do/say to help her?

Is this kind of thing common or has my friend just got a twat of a boyfriend?

What a twat he is. She needs to work on this and fast. I think that if you've spent on home improvements you do have some rights - a lawyer friend told me that a while ago, but I don't know much else.

I don't know how she can continue a relationship like that - he's absolutely out of order.

He is a twat and he won't get any better. She should leave him.

Clearly he does not see this relationship as leading to marriage.

However, I do feel that she has to take responsibility for the steps that have led to this position, rather than him being portrayed as the 'abuser'. Did they discuss the basis on which they would be living before they moved there? I think she has been a bit naive.

He's using her.

She must have really low self-esteem to put up wiht this.

Eventually, probably when she's too old to find someone in time to have children, he'll dump her and marry someone with financial assets and ride off into the sunset with her (and then have kids with her, while your DF is left childless, homeless and penniless because of all the food she's bought him on credit cards. Call me cynical, but I bet she does more domestic labour than him as well.

I'm missing something... she's on £25K and pays half the bills (fair enough) but there's no mortgage/rent to pay. She may have acquired a financial interest in the house by having paid for repairs, but it depends on what was paid for. But how is he financially exploiting her, when she's skint because she's paying off her own debt?

Sorry, I don't get it; should he be paying her debts, or something?

Oldlady - there's no reason why he should pay off her debts, but a bloke who allows his GF to put their joint food bill on her credit card and refuses to make plans with her (buying house together) that ensure her financial security as well as his own, is exploiting her IMO.

He obviously sees her as a convenience and she either doesn't mind that (unlikely) or is in denial about it.

I can understand not wanting to make financial plans with someoen who is shit with money; but to actively set up a domestic environment where you know that if the relationship goes west, the other person will be financially worse off than they would be if they weren't with you,and to refuse to make reasonable financial plans with them, is at the very least dishonourable IMO. Unless of course, you have made it crystal clear that the other person is only there on a temporary basis and you don't envisage a long term future together. If someone accepts those terms, fair enough I suppose, it's up to them to make bad financial decisions... but very few people would accept terms spelt out so clearly.

You might want to give this book to your friend ASAP

Alvin Hall is another writer that she should read.

I hope the scenario you have outlined is uncommon, however it will be more common in circumstances where women are in a relationship and are not tacking the dynamics of their finances, not learning about the options available for them

Thanks for the explanation, HerBeatitude, and I see your points. But I'm also inclined to think that she is "financially exploiting" him, by living rent/mortgage-free while she pays off her debts. If her share of the bills includes an agreement that she does the food shopping (and she simply can't manage her money) then I don't see that she's so hard done by.

How do we know he's refused to do anything, other than marry her? Or that he's "actively" planning to shaft her?

If this was a woman shepherding her resources in the face of a fiscally-unreliable partner, she wouldn't be being called any kind of a twat.

it sounds fine to me tbh. the groceries etc would be offset by the rent they would both be paying. they are both living there so upgrading the property is obviously a joint choice that they made (i doubt that he said 'this needs doing and you're paying for it. if you can't afford it, get your mum to fork out' - more like they discussed what they could do with the place and how it was going to be paid for).

does she not have rights by common law as they have been together for eight years?

if she is unhappy with the status quo, then she needs to discuss with him. i can't see too much of a problem with it tbh.

for the first however many years i propped up dh - i supplied the deposit for the house, my dgd died and the money he left me got put into it/ bought joint stuff. i'm a bit depressed by this being seen as an issue tbh (dh and i earned roughly the same amount, but were together for ten or so years before we got married)

the only bit i would be concerned about is his attitude (and reasoning) wrt marriage tbh, but you only have that second hand - i suspect there may be a chunk of bravado involved.

but does she want to be with him? she obviously feels secure enough to keep putting money into the house etc - presumably if she thought she was going to get chucked out, she wouldn't be so keen, and would be putting those funds into savings.

There's no such thing as "common law rights". I think it's important that women realise that; in many ways it's the value of the thread. No-one acquires a right to stay in a property, just because they share the bills.

However, if the OP's friend and/or parents put a significant sum of money into improving the value of the house (eg, adding rooms), they may have a financial interest in the property. If what they paid for was carpets, curtains and a bit of redecorating, I'm not so sure.

do they have children? i assume not?

'Despite this he says he doesn't want to marry her in case they divorce and she gets half his Mum's house. She has no rights to live in his house and lives with the threat that he can throw her out on the street on a whim.'

And she still wants to marry him?

He's already taken by the sound of it.

I hope she's the one doing the taking here. My advice to her would be to put her credit card in a hard to find spot, do her utmost to pay off her debt by living very frugally, and make plans to find a place for herself. This man doesn't want her for the long haul, and she definitely shouldn't want him.

branchingout- Her expectation was that they would get married. That was why she was happy (at the time) to have given up her own flat.

Herbeatitude- yes she does have low self-esteem. She is overweight and has always over-invested in relationships with boyfriends at the expense of other aspects of her life (something she has admitted to). I have told her that he could leave her alone and childless and run off with someone else in 10 years time. And yes, I do think she does most, if not all the domestic labour.

Oldladyknowsnothing-I dont think it is fair for her to pay half the bills. Because-
-she is paying a fortune to commute because he insisted she move far away from work
-their bills (for a 3 bed 100yo bungalow) are MUCH higher than they were for the 1-bed flat of hers they were living in. It was him who wanted to move so shouldnt he pay for the massively higher council tax and fuel bills?
-if he was living there alone, he would be paying out more than the 50% he does now, eg 575% ctax, standing charges on gas/electric, line rental on phone and broadband. Her being there doesnt increase his bills by that much.

He is v careful that she doesnt pay for anything structural so that she cant claim that she has contributed to the house's value if they split.

I dont think she's skint solely because she's paying off debt. When I said it was old I didnt mean pre-him. She does spend too much on clothes for herself but a lot has gone on joint things like holidays, presents, house decor, car costs, eating out, takeaways, dvds, electrical eqipment for the house. she also spent a lot on white goods for her old flat which she left behind when they moved into his Mums.

I think that after 8 years together it would not be unreasonable for him to pay off her debts (at 20% interest) with his savings and trust her to pay him back. Their joint finances would then be improved in the long run.

and I'm at "she is exploiting him"

pinkfizzle- I've got an Alvin hall book- I'll give her that, thanks for the tip.

skint- she has no rights. it isnt like them renting together. No kids- she is getting broody,he is horrified at the idea.

math- the problem is she cant live frugally and get her debts paid because she is shelling out so much every month on (his)bills and transport.

Was the marriage something they had discussed or was it something she assumed/wished?

She has two problems:
This is the first one. She is living with a man who is using her and who does not live her or respect her. She possibly neither loves nor respects herself. She invests far too much in relationships with men is putting it mildly.
'He is v careful that she doesnt pay for anything structural so that she cant claim that she has contributed to the house's value if they split.' Says it all.

He has his long term plan all laid out. She has hers. Never the twain shall meet. She will come home one day to find her replacement waiting for her.

Her second problem:
'holidays, presents, house decor, car costs, eating out, takeaways, dvds, electrical eqipment for the house. she also spent a lot on white goods for her old flat which she left behind when they moved into his Mums.' She has a habit of living beyond her means, and that is a problem that is not her BFs to fix by paying her debts. There is no way the BF has any duty to pay off her debt. This habit will ruin her life if she doesn't fix it herself ASAP. She should not spend one more penny on house decor for a house that will never be hers. She should not spend one penny on electrical equipment (do you mean TVs or music stuff, or electrical wiring here, or kitchen appliances?) Anything she has bought that is not nailed down she should try to sell. It's hers if she bought it. Eating out and takeaways will also (1) make you overweight if you do it too much, (more than once a month), and (2) burn a hole in your money.

Her basic expenses are all she should pay -- transport and some food. No more clothes or shoes or handbags. She should be looking for a better paying job.

She does not seem to really value money or take care of the things that it buys. This may sound terribly materialistic, but here's my take on it: If you realise that the money you have to spend is the result of the work you have to do and the effort you put in to keep that work, then you will value that money and respect the things that that money will get for you. If you have little or no respect for your competence at your job and the money it brings, (i.e. for your own input into your own life) and you value things outside of yourself, like 'A Man', that's the only thing that you will consistently pursue, often to the detriment of your finances. She was willing to move 30 miles from her job for this man.

This man seems to understand money. She needs to sit him down and tell him what her spending plans are -- she will spend what is necessary on transport for her job. She will not buy more than 50% of groceries. She will not spend another penny on anything else. In return for the housework she does, the BF will assume a portion of the house-related charges that are now split 50-50, so he should pay 75% instead. This is what a maid and cook and laundry service (and an occasional call girl) would cost him, and it is reasonable.

Receipts will be necessary to calculate who owes who what at the end of each week. She will make a list when she goes shopping and she will stick to it, and she will not eat out until there's a huge dent in the debt. (25% reduction) She will learn to cook. She will check her bank balance every day online, and count every penny in her handbag. She will become aware of the exact amount of her debt and be able to tell what it is on any given day.

'I think that after 8 years together it would not be unreasonable for him to pay off her debts (at 20% interest) with his savings and trust her to pay him back. Their joint finances would then be improved in the long run.' There are no joint finances here. The BF has long term plans that do not include this unfortunate self-delusional friend of yours. He has no duty to pay off the debts of someone he has led on and dictated to, unfortunately.

She needs to take the wool off her eyes and start thinking in terms of Me and My Money. The man is a complete twat and there is no future, financial or familywise, with him, for her. If she had one ounce of self respect she would be able to see that. Please don't encourage her to find any solution to the mess she has got herself into that involves sustaining the illusion that there is any hope for this relationship of hers.

I don't this is financial exploitation. She is living rent free in someone else's house. It may be emotionally dubious because she thinks it is a long term relationship and he clearly doesn't. If she doesn't have children with him, then there is no reason why she should be entitled to the house.

She needs to get budgeting advice, and learn to live within her means, because if she is paying for things on a credit card, then she is not paying off her debts. She is merely moving them to a different card.

But she gets paid £25k, has no rent to pay and no kids. Unless her debts are massive I can't see why she can't live within her means or why she is financially exploited.

Urm, I'm not sure that I agree that this is financial abuse either.

1. The debt is her own, he is not responsible for paying it off (and it probably wouldn't help her in the long run if he did).
2. They are not married, the house is his and she is paying rent - this is a pretty normal set up.
3. She seems to be investing her life in this set up and he isn't, that seems to be the sticking point here. He clearly doesn't see a long term relationship with her and she needs to protect herself for the day when she will inevitably have to move out. (All this changes if they have children together.

Yes, he is a twat.

Do not assume howevet that she wouldn't be entitled to anything. DP split up with his ex years ago, and remortgaged in order to give her half the equity gained, to which she was entitled. She was not named on teh mortgage, nor were they married or had children, and she didn't pay the mortgage, however she paid the bills. According to solicitors she was entitled to half as she enable DP to pay his mortgage because she was responsible for teh bills.

It didn't get to litigation (they both independently sought advice, it was all pretty amicable in the end and they are still friends).

He knows all this would change if they had children, that's why he will never do this.

I don't think it's exploitation exactly, but then he's not exactly showing a lot of love and respect for her either, doesn't sounds like he sees her as a long-term part of his life.

If she wants to be married and have a proper family home with someone, she'd be advised to look elsewhere, he clearly doesn't want that, at least not with her.

How old is she?

Because she hasn't got forever, if she wants children she needs to find a man who actually wants to have children with her.

But first, she needs to find some self-esteem, so that the next man she involves herself with, is someone who esteems her.

She is 32. She isn't massively broody. Marriage is much more important to her than babies.

To clarify- she isn't paying rent. If she was she'd have rights. as it is she has no housing status at all. This affects her credit rating and ability to get cheaper credit.

She doesn't want his house. She wants them to buy a home together. He refuses because he has such a strong emotional attachement to his Mums house.

Her overspending is linked to her insecurity. She has low self-esteem and spends to cheer herself up. She also spends money on him as a way of showing love.

£20k of her debt is student loans, so that's not really her fault.

Her earning potential is severely restricted because of the remote place he forced her to move to.

I put this thread in the feminist section because I was looking for a feminist analysis of this kind of behaviour. Some of the comments belong more in AIBU and relationships sections. You know, those places where it's ok for men to beat and rape their wives.

FAS, I don't really see what the man has done wrong. He has been clear with her that he doesn't want to marry her and he doesn't want financial responsibility for her. So he is not being dishonest. They just want different things from the relationship and she has to decide whether or not she can accept that or she has leave the relationship.

If my son was in such a relationship and didn't think of it as a long term commitment and there were no children involved, I would be advising him to do the same as this man is doing.

She could get on to the property ladder if she wanted to. She could live rent free in her partner's house and get a mortgage on a buy to let property.

she has issues.

he is a twunt, but imo has made no secret of the fact that he his an out and out twunt.

in a case like this she really is making a bad decision but i don't think he can be blamed for her decision making.

if she were sensible she could still live with him and use it as a fantastic opportunity to live rent free and pay off her debts and build up savings.

'I put this thread in the feminist section because I was looking for a feminist analysis of this kind of behaviour. Some of the comments belong more in AIBU and relationships sections. You know, those places where it's ok for men to beat and rape their wives.'

Just want to the idea that AIBU and Relationships are places where it's considered ok for men to beat and rape their wives.

And also want to point out that this friend of yours has not been beaten or raped by this man, as far as we know.

A feminist analysis of any problem above all involves looking at what a woman can do for herself, for her own good, and to further her own best interests. It involves looking at the real root of her problems, and not just a kneejerk "let's bash the man" response. Your friend will get nowhere in life and will have her heart broken everywhere she turns if she doesn't get her financial house in order and can't see how her desire for marriage to this man is a desire for utter misery.

So not that much different from common sense.

don't see how this is abuse, or how he is a twat.

If I was in his shoes I would make damn sure she had no claim on my house too