Maternity care

[lucyintheskywithdinos]

My first thread here, been lurking for ages though.

I have been thinking about the way the medical professions treat women, particularly in regard to pregnancy and birth. This was sparked by one woman's comment at the natural birth support group I help out at. Her exact words were that she felt 'as though I wasn't human, I was thinking for God's sake, will someone just explain what you're doing down there'. While she was thinking this 'they' had actually performed an episiostomy with her husband's consent and delivered her baby by forceps.

I have expereinced a similar thing myself, DD1 was rushed away for recussitation my DP went with her, noone thought to tell me what was going on. I thought she'd died.

It seems to be quite a common thing amongst women I've supported (I'm a BFC), is it common in general? As a newbie feminist is it a feminist issue? And what can be done about it within hospitals?

If a woman has specifically said she doesn't want a certain procedure, is it even legal for the husband to override this?

Right this second life and death decisions are pretty rare though. With the vast majority of interventions there is time to discuss options and gain consent!

From pretty much the moment I got to the hospital it was a fight to have things explained, options discussed and to refuse things I didn't want. DP had a real argument with the midwife when I refused to have my waters broken - if he hadn't been there I think I'd have been browbeaten into submission.

I totally disagree with you AliGrylls - the important decisions affecting the health of the mother and baby are the ones where it's most vital for options to be discussed and real consent gained.

NW20,

No, of course it isn't. I cannot even believed you asked the question. Some people believe we are actually living in the 60s or earlier and are bashing a wall that has already fallen over.

It is illegal to go against ANY patients consent unless they are deemed to be unable to give informed consent. I think that is where a good and clear birth plan can be very useful. Of course, you may choose to override it anyway, but, in extremis, it is a good guideline for both your partner and the medical professionals.

"I would really like to know the details of the people who had these procedures performed on them without consent. For instance, whether they were physically able to give informed consent at the time and whether they pursued legal redress afterwards."

Ok Larry, this is what happened to me.

After being in the 2nd stage of labour for three hours my DD was in distress and clearly not coming out.

I had had an epidural which hadn't worked - the anaesthetist had shrugged his shoulders and disappeared after I told him I could still feel my feet.

I begged my m/w to sort it out.

She refused.

She point blank refused to sort out adequate pain relief for me. She did tell me that if I hadn't pushed the baby out in 30 mins then I would have a ventouse delivery, but I was not asked to consent to this and no pain relief was organised in anticipation of thise.

30 minutes later a Dr came in and told me she was going to use ventouse.

That failed.

Without talking to me, explaining anything at all or asking for my consent she got forceps out of the cupboard and came at me with a pair of scissors.

I did not consent to her cutting me or, inserting those things without any kind of pain relief, not a local anaesthetic, nothing.

I would not have consented to them doing that to me. I was completely compus mentus.

It happens, I can't believe you can think that it doesn't.
There wa\s p

Oh. My. God. withorwithoutyou, that is HORRIFIC. I am beyond shocked.
And very scared now! :(

"My feeling that this is anti men is the OP is putting it forward as a "feminist" issue."

Ah - I see the mistake you have made. You thik feminism is anti-men! It's a common mistake.

Withorwithoutyou,

Your story is horrendous. I never said it did not happen, I just believe it to be rare.

Did you have a birthing partner with you at all? Did you seek legal redress?

My point is you have every right to be angry (and worse) at the individuals concerned, not at men in general. It is also the case that there are horrendous cases in every area of medicine, not just childbirth.

So Larry, your basic argument seems to be because we don't have it as bad as our mother's generation (debatable) that we should just suck it up?

I agree dueling.

The people who treated me badly during my birth - the m/w and the obs, were women.

The only person who treated me like a human being was the male paediatrician who checked DD over on the recuss table and made a point of making eye contact with me across the very crowded room to reassure me that she was ok.

AliIf she had specifically said before hand that her husband could consent for her then fine. Personally, it is horrifying that my partner could consent for me and i'm not the only one on the thread to feel that way.

larry - You misinterpreted, badly. Female genital mutilation is barbaric and 100% unnecessary in every case. You're taking the piss with that one. You are fortunate that you will never have an episiotomy, not that you will never experience childbirth first hand. Maybe you'd like to have one though, if you're distracted enough, you probably won't even notice it so that makes it ok.

So the women who have come on here and said that they had procedures done to them without their consent are not good enough for you? Big surprise. You obviously know better than those who have actual experience of it

It is not fair to say that if you don't want to risk a brutal birth where your wishes may be ignored then don't have children. In fact, it's ridiculous.

larry, you seem to be confused that this thread is about being angry with men

I would say I've had four straight forward, relatively uneventful births.

The only thing that has stayed with me is the midwife telling my DH to hold me down on the bed when I wanted to get up onto my knees to deliver.
Clearly that didn't suit the HCP's so they instructed my husband to restrain me.
I have never been so angry in my life, took along to forgive him although he was just doing as he was told thinking it was the right thing to do.
You are a piece of meat who doesn't know what they want to some of the midwives/dr's. Thank goodness 99% of them don't have that attitude.

Larry, I'm not angry at men in general, you're missing the point.

I'm angry that institutional medical care put the welfare of women last.

The people who treated me like that were women, it's not about what men do to women, it's about how women are treated generally when it comes to maternity care.

But then you said it yourself - "if you don't want to risk that kind of thing don't have children."

So we just have to put up and shut up?

And it's not rare.

And no, I didn't seek legal redress - the fuckers doctored my notes to cover up what they had done.

withorwithoutyou that is disgusting Presumably because your DD was on the recuss table there had been problems with her during delivery and getting her out was urgent? I can understand that you wanted (and had a right to) proper pain relief but are you also saying you would not have consented to an episiotomy at all.

In fact I am interested to know how many woman who had interventions wouldn't have consented had they been asked to?

FWIW I didn't consent to having my waters broken: it was sort of talked about and then just done, but I wouldn't have witheld consent had I explicitly been asked to provide it IYSWIM.

Ahickey I thought most people recognised that stirrups are part and parcel of an assisted delivery and I had assumed you were referring to stirups being used for a "normal" delivery. It was at that that I expressed shock.

Withorwithoutyou and Msrisotto,

My comment "if you don't want to risk that kind of thing, don't have children" was specifically with respect to episiotomies. Read my post. It was not general. There is a risk, in a viganal birth, of an episiotomy being required. I might have added "or opt for an elective caesarian"

MsRisotto,

You really annoy me. You are on a parenting site on a childbirth thread when you are neither a parent nor even sure if you intend to become one! I find that bizarre. Your only knowledge of childbirth comes from feminist treatises where it is treated as an abuse against women. In none of your posts on the subject (save when you rebut something someone else has said) do you mention babies (another word to look up?). Those are the end product of childbirth, by the way, it is not merely a way of the patriarchy asserting its control over oppressed womanhood.

You are a champion of manipulating other peoples' posts to suit your worldview and reinterpreting your own to again suit your agenda.

Nothing you say is actually helpful to parents or couples expecting their first child. I just don't get it. Sorry.

msrisotto: "it is horrifying that my partner could consent for me and i'm not the only one on the thread to feel that way."

There must be many women out there then who are disappointed with their partners because during the worst part of my labour I was actually incapable of speaking and DH had to do it for me.

Also, I don't get this - do us women want birth partners or not? The word partner suggests equality and although during labour ultimately it is up to the woman, if the woman is incapable of making the decision surely it is the partner's entitlement to make that decision on her behalf (surely they would only have your best interests at heart).

If you don't want someone else to make a decision for you then don't have a birth partner but all I will say is good luck in that case.

withorwwithoutyou: "it's about how women are treated generally when it comes to maternity care."

This is why it is not a feminist issue. It is an issue and there are problems. The problems are about poor/inconsistent training (of which I am sure that there is plenty); under-resourced hospitals; and inadequate research being done on making the drugs more natural (to name one syntocin). Women have given birth for thousands of years nowadays because it is so safe (in terms of mother and baby surviving) it is probably a really low priority for the NHS and therefore will never get the funding that say cancer or alzheimers gets.

larry - you know nothing about me and my desires and/or abilities to have children so lets leave personal remarks out of this thank you.

Again I have been talking about when episiotomies and forceps etc etc are done without gaining the consent of the woman involved. I have read no feminist treatises.

The things i am talking about are about respecting the woman giving birth. I suppose in a way it isn't helpful to the people in the relationships who are not giving birth but they're not the topic of conversation here. I am talking about the prioritising of women in childbirth.

If you're resorting to attacking my credibility for posting on this thread (oh the irony), you clearly have nothing left to stand on.

Ali - birth partners are there for support to suggest that if I don't want them to speak for me, then I should have NO support, is mental.

Of course it is a feminist issue. It's women being treated badly, and only women. It doesn't matter if the person who is the one treating the woman giving birth is a man or a woman.

Incidentally, am I going mad or do I remember women being sectioned under the mental health act if they refused a c-section?

"If you don't want someone else to make a decision for you then don't have a birth partner but all I will say is good luck in that case."

surely the reason most people have a birth partner is so that they can make a decision based upon what you have stated you want rather than to make decisions for you!?

I laboured on my back (not through choice) strapped to a monitor for 13 hours. It was most uncomfortable, to say the least. Okay, I only delivered in stirrups, I guess I am a lucky gal - but it wasn't a forceps or ventouse extraction, I guess I was unlucky in that respect. It is obviously so rare because one or two people here have never heard of it.
Where was Hickey? Right next to me, holding my hand. I had an episotomy without being asked. No one asked DP either, OBs just went ahead and did it. I would have much preferred to tear, tbh. I had two incisions so long and so deep that I couldn't walk for 6 weeks (sorry, I know I've said that before, I sound like I'm scavenging for sympathy - I'm not, I'm just stating a fact!). If my consultant had listened to my concerns over the size of the baby beforehand, I might have been able to have an early induction (as I did with DC2, wonderful experience) or a planned caesarean. Yes, recovering from a CS is hard and painful, but at least I would have been prepared for it, and given consent. As it was, I wasn't listened to, and that is what I want to see changed. Whether that's a feminist issue, I really don't care. If that makes me a feminist, then I'm a feminist. I don't really see what demanding better maternity care has got to do with hating men, but I'm new here, so forgive my ignorance.
My consultant with DC1 was a man and an arse. My MW with DC1 was female, and equally an arse. My consultant with DC2 was a man and a lovely, kind, compassionate person, who listened to me, reassured me, and helped me. Got nothing to do with gender of the professional IMO, just how they treat and respond to me as a woman.
I'm off now to kick DP in the balls and am hiding this thread.

Aligrylls, do you seriously belive that if men gave birth and not women that maternty care would be as poor as it is? Seriously?

Nancydrew - DD had the cord wrapped a couple of times round her neck hence needing to be checked, but she was ok.

Of course I don't value having an intact perineum over my DD's life

It's not about that - it's about the fact that I was not consulted with and didn't have antything explained to me - even though there was a thirty minute wait between them saying an instrumental delivery was likely and it happening.

I was also told I couldn't have any pain relief becuase "it would make my pushing even more rubbish than it already was". That m/w didn't even arrange a local anaesthetic for me, even though she KNEW thirty minutes before it happened that I was going to have an instrumental delivery.

And the pain relief thing, the pain wasn't the worse thhing - it was being able to feel the sensation of having those things put inside me - it made me feel less than human. There was no need for that, there really wasn't.

I'm so for you, withorwithoutyou. I can remember how violated I felt after having a sweep - goodness only knows what it must have been like for you, I cannot imagine.

Just to go back to epidurals
It certainly IS the case that many women are given higher doses of epidural and remain immobile.
It is dependent on area, hospital, protocol: I gave birth nearly 7 years ago and was told that in that hospital they 'did not do' lower dose epidurals. It is probably a changing trend. I know it happens locally.

I don't know why it presses my buttons but it does, for that to be followed with a negative comment about people who are interested in undisturbed birth. What's wrong with that? It's valid. I don't give a stuff who has an epidural or not, who has an elective cs or not, they are good choices in many cases and essential in others!

AHickey did you give birth in the UK? I wasn't being facetious earlier - am genuinely shocked that stirrups form part of a "normal" delivery in the UK.

Incidentally with DC2, after 15hrs+ in labour, half way through pushing I suddenly became exhausted and moved from my knees onto my back only for a very obnoxious HCA to bark "you'll never get the baby out like that you know" as she walked into the room.

I don't think anyone is arguing that what they want is to be listened to and treated as an individual.