Maternity care

[lucyintheskywithdinos]

My first thread here, been lurking for ages though.

I have been thinking about the way the medical professions treat women, particularly in regard to pregnancy and birth. This was sparked by one woman's comment at the natural birth support group I help out at. Her exact words were that she felt 'as though I wasn't human, I was thinking for God's sake, will someone just explain what you're doing down there'. While she was thinking this 'they' had actually performed an episiostomy with her husband's consent and delivered her baby by forceps.

I have expereinced a similar thing myself, DD1 was rushed away for recussitation my DP went with her, noone thought to tell me what was going on. I thought she'd died.

It seems to be quite a common thing amongst women I've supported (I'm a BFC), is it common in general? As a newbie feminist is it a feminist issue? And what can be done about it within hospitals?

larry your style offends me because of what you said to mrsrisotto.

No one has said you should not be here because you have not given birth.

Indeed quite a few ladies have commended you for your interest and your support of your wife.

My objection has been to you coming into the feminist section and trying to explain why what we are discussing is not a feminist issue and taking the approach "go look for objective evidence".

The thing is, part of looking at things from a feminist viewpoint is looking for what is not immediately obviously there - i.e. what is hidden and silenced.

Larry - you are having an internet debate.

We are sharing birth stories and experiences and having an organic discussion on a feminist forum about those experiences.

Thank you for apologising for you tone - shame you then posted to MrsR in a nasty passive aggressive way straight afterwards.

larry - crosspost - I have now seen your apology

The question of "numbers" versus "anecdote" isn't as clear cut as Larry is suggesting - if you actually look at research that is being done into women's experiences of maternity care you will see that much of it is qualitative (that is, hearing, interpreting and relating women's stories).

Can I also just add before going out that we feminists might not want or need to discuss this within a (male dominated, patriarchal) scientific framework?

larry, I am a statistician, though my main work doesn't involve survey data. What we do know is that the observed data (the respondents) are very unlikely to be representative of the missing data (those who didn't respond). In most surveys, lower response rates are observed with lower social class and ethnic minorities. I suspect both of these would be themselves associated with different responses.

But the big confounder that hasn't been measured here is traumatic experience - are women who had a traumatic experience more or less likely to respond? You argue that they would be more likely to respond, on what might appear to me to be logical grounds. But we need to factor in that those with bad experiences are more likely to suffer from PND, which could make them less able to respond. Where does the balance lie? We just don't have the data to tell us.

In addition, several posters have put forward the (reasonable, IMO) argument that processing a birth, and realising things could have been better, can take many more than 3 months.

Not sure I've helped, but you did ask for a statistical comment.

Tabouleh,

"My objection has been to you coming into the feminist section and trying to explain why what we are discussing is not a feminist issue and taking the approach "go look for objective evidence"."

"The thing is, part of looking at things from a feminist viewpoint is looking for what is not immediately obviously there - i.e. what is hidden and silenced."

I guess that is where you and I are always going to be poles apart and maybe why I SHOULD NOT be on this section. Do you welcome the view "this is not a feminist" issue because of X, Y or Z? If not, the question "is childbirth a feminist issue" becomes somewhat moot. As a scientist, objective evidence is the only evidence worth really looking at in support of or against a thesis (the OP phrased her post as a thesis).

The idea that you have already assumed that the thesis is true and, if there is no objective evidence, try to find "hidden and silenced" evidence strikes me as akin to a a witch hunt. At what point, if ever, will you say that an issue which involves women is NOT a feminist issue? And, if the answer is never, then this whole thread is about experience sharing rather than debate (and I definitely have no place in it).

I am trying to walk a thin line here.

Anyway - onto more stories:

I am gutted, fucking gutted that I did not have proper skin to skin with my DS - when there was absolutely no reason that I could not have done.

It was in my birth plan. But because I was a little high/confused from the gas and air and on my back and had an episiotomy my DS was on my tummy and then somehow he got taken away into the corner of the room and weighed - I don't know it is a bit of a blur.

I mean who fucking cares how much he weighed - he was my beautiful boy who should have been snuggled next to his Mummy. He could have been weighed an hour later or something.

Our BF relationship did not work out - now partially this could have been an undiagnosed tongue tie but who knows.

I was so bewildered and sort of disconnected feeling from him.

I need to go and talk though my birth notes don't I to get closure?

Will there be a time when I don't get these sad feelings wrt to the birth?

Mamachris,

Definitely helpful and interesting.

Thanks

Ok Larry, I'll admit it - I have now thoroughly lost patience with your bull in a china shop presence on this thread and am now actually laughing at you.

Oh the irony...

Larry said to a bunch of women on a feminist thread about childbirth,

"Just think of me as an insensitive male "twat"

Actually Larry if you don't mind I'll replace twat with wanker.

www.yourdictionary.com/twat

this is not about a thesis - WTF - this is real bloody life - real experiences - real emotions

what I just said in the post there will never come across properly into an "unsatisfied box"

people are starting to take note of direct testimonies to research attitudes etc - and even from websites such as these

Example

"The aim of the research was to examine discussions by parents and parents-to-be on how they make their formula-feeding choices, the sources of information they use, and the concerns that drive them to the formula choices they make for their babies. The intention was to deliberately look for evidence in the chat forums around the way baby food companies have influenced choices, both directly and indirectly."

I agree AH. No logical conflict between science and feminism IMO.

With regard to the lack of proper interpretation of the data in this report, it could well be a report with an agenda (even one unacknowledged by the authors), or it could just be another example of poor statistical thinking (sadly all too common, even in the top journals these days).

The fact that so many women on this thread (and that I know in RL) had traumatic birth experiences does strongly suggest that it is more than a small minority of women who had poor experiences.

But what makes it a feminist issue IMO is not how awful birth can be, but that this is another case where womens' opinions about what is done to their bodies is being ignored.

larrygrylls - please don't bring things up from previous threads.

"I am trying to walk a thin line here." - you just stepped over it mate.

Can we all agree to ignore Larry - since I think he said he would leave the thread if no one was engaging with him.

__

Let's have some more stories please and more thoughts about what can be done to improve things.

Wow, Larry's posts are like anti-feminist bingo, we've had "my wife doesn't agree with you", "why are you moaning about this when there are worse things happening/happened in the past", "I'm a Rational Scientist Man unlike you silly emotional womenfolk" (as if there weren't plenty of women on here with hard science/maths/stats degrees, me included if you want to know) and now getting people distracted with debate over who said what to him and how it made him feel and what he should do or say.

This is not about you. This is about women's experiences. (incidentally have you ever heard the term 'mansplaining'?)

On the original issue, I've been really horrified by some of the stories on here (and irl), procedures done without consent or explanation, cutting or stitching without anaesthetic, treating women with complete lack of respect, almost lack of recognition that the woman is human and sentient, it's really chilling.

I've also been seeing the term 'unborn baby' creeping into general usage and, disturbingly, official health advice. Language is important and does influence our thinking. I find it worrying, along wtih talk of the midwives/doctors having a dual responsibility to The Baby and The Mother as patients. I think it's really important to keep in mind that there is no baby until it's born (and no mother either, unless the woman happens to already have children). I know, obviously, emotionally etc of course there is a baby, but legally there is not, there's no conflict of rights, the woman is 100% a full human person with full human rights and there is no baby.

I guess this sounds harsh and horrible and I'm not suggesting removing any focus from the importance of delivering a healthy baby, or that most women wouldn't be happy to suffer anything for the good of their baby (though it would be good if they at least nominally had the choice!). Just that medical staff and people in general need to realise that the fact that a woman does not sacrifice any rights or deserve to be treated with any less respect just because she happens to be pregnant or giving birth.

sorry, cross-posted with the request to ignore, please ignore first bit of my post :)

indeed... 'unborn baby' is often used in an emotive way, a way to make a parent feel they are doing wrong.

Ephiny - "I think it's really important to keep in mind that there is no baby until it's born (and no mother either, unless the woman happens to already have children)"

Once a baby reaches 24 weeks it has rights. AT 24 weeks medical staff are obliged by law to attempt to resuscitate all babies. Therefore, to say there is no baby until it is born is legally wrong. A baby is a baby once it is capable of being able to survive outside the womb.

Spiritmum - if a woman had asked you the same question would you have felt the same way? I was asked by loads of people why I wanted to have a natural birth with D2 (men and women). Surely it is not intended to be patriarchal and it is just curiosity.

Beachcomber - you are probably giving me an education in modern day feminism and what it is about, which I am finding genuinely interesting. But I really don't feel like any of the decisions in my life have been influenced by the patriarchal society (matter for another thread maybe).

I have taken your point on board about midwives treating patients with lack of respect and I do agree that there is an element of that which goes on. However, I am sure the way they treat other women is not influenced by men an midwifery is most definitely a female dominated profession. I would say that in my own experience, problems arose not because of midwives treating me with lack of respect but was caused by lack of resources.

I really do think this is an interesting topic. It is interesting listening to other people's stories but it is useful at statistics in general.

With my third child (also a planned cesarean), I asked for something I had read about called a 'natural cesarean' - total contradiction in terms, BUT

• I was listened to when I explained what I wanted

• and they did it once they'd determined that it wouldn't affect the process of delivery.

They dropped the screens, cut through the amniontic sac (fluid went everywhere, I had never seen my amniotic fluid before despite it being my third birth experience), pulled my son's head out of the incision - he was turned to 'face' me so slowly, I saw his hair then his brow then his face, it as incredible - and gently, slowly, eased him out. It took minutes for him to be fully 'out' and he only started crying once his upper body had emerged. I got skin to skin immediately (with partner and a midwife flanking me in case I couldn't hold him properly - they draped us with towels).

Compared with my previous cesareans, which were maternal choice (and the first hard fought for, which I don't regret), it was an intimate and bonding experience. The best bit was knowing that they were doing as I had requested. I felt really considered.

The contrast between my first delivery six years earlier - at the same hospital - was stark. I suspect my age and my (learnt), forcefulness was the deciding factor - it's a shame it took vast experience of maternal services (it was my sixth pregnancy), to give me the vocabulary to ensure I was listened to.

But it was a good experience.

AG - "Once a baby reaches 24 weeks it has rights. AT 24 weeks medical staff are obliged by law to attempt to resuscitate all babies. Therefore, to say there is no baby until it is born is legally wrong. A baby is a baby once it is capable of being able to survive outside the womb."

Yes, a baby has rights, but it is not a baby until it is born, ie independent from its mother's body. Before then it is a foetus, and legally has no rights. This is how it has to be, or a woman would have to sacrifice rights over her own body once into 3rd trimester.

Aldrin - that sounds great - I have also read about 'natural cesarean'. I can see that it is making the process much more similar to a vaginal delivery.