If you're in a heterosexual relationship, how do you assert your feminist principles?

[kittycat37]

I'm interested in what others say about this because I think about it with my own relationship - I'm not sure how successful I am.

Within the bounds of our own relationship I think it works quite well - the problems arise from outside influences.

For instance, if it's just me, DH and DCs at home we take equal responsility for them.

However if MIL is there, she'll start saying to DCs 'tell Mummy to wipe your nose' etc as though it's SOLELY my responsiblity. She'll react as though anything DH does in that realm is AMAZING (just because he's male).
She doesn't do it maliciously, but it really annoys me and one of these days I know I will snap at her which won't be productive.

Also whilst DH and I take equal finacial responsiblity, I find I'm often subject to the 'how do you manage to work AND have kids?' rubbish which he never is, as far as I can tell.

None of these things are earth shattering, obviously, but I think they do have a subtle effect which potentially can be quite pernicious - do any of you wiser feminists than me have strategies for dealing with the daily shit I'm describing?

EXACTLY - everyone is so much better at wording this than I!

I think that this is what I resent - the fact that I have to live in this constant state of vigilence, that he gets to shut down.

It also annoys me that men who do occupy the domestic zone as generally seen as heroic where as women are just expected to get on with it. The few SAHD's I know are lionised at Toddler Groups, my DH (a teacher) is feted for being "good" when he has the girls out with him in the holidays. It drives insane. And, whilst I in no way begrudge him his success, would the same level of attention have been brough to bear if he'd been My Mummy Cooks?

This has been such an interesting thread to read - I've found it's hard to externalise some of these opinions in RL because I feel I should be grateful for having two healthy children and one on the way, a very hands-on DH when it comes to the kids, and a very good job that seems to accommodate my various maternity leave & part-time work issues.

Interestingly I have just been offered a very good temporary promotion for a term, and am due to go on maternity leave in January anyway. I am racked with guilt about working full time for a term, thus leaving the girls 'without a proper mother' for that time (mostly my own worries, but also fuelled by some throwaway comments by others), I have started a discussion (with DH and others) a number of times about what to do once baby #3 is born in terms of work. I've almost assumed I'd take a career break to help bring up 3 DCs under the age of 4, and not one person has made any suggestion that might DH not do it?, might it harm my career?, how might I feel? etc etc

I felt very disempowered after DC1 was born - and the MIL commments similar to another poster's about how wonderful my DH was to 'help' me with the children, 'help' me with the housework, 'babysit' [WTF?!] his children etc used to grate beyond belief. I began to resent my DH for having adult conversations at work and expecting food to be on the table when he got home. (Possibly my imposition of expectations on him, rather than his)?

I think it's less of a case of "having to challenge the status quo" within the relationship, but more so within the circles of friends and family we have. Sorry, realise I've rambled on a bit so I'll stop now, but lots of food for thought in this thread, so thank you! What to do with it all is another matter, mind! :o

I overheard my MIL say to my DH that 'NO man does as much as him'....but then he calls me 'woman' in a derogatory way...

I dreamt about my first love last night, he was so much better evolved.

It's interesting to read this thread for a number of reasons, not least because I don't really consciously think about the way our household runs as a feminist/anti-feminist thing. We just do what works for us and helps things run more smoothly. For example, I can't sew so DH sews DS's badges and name tapes on. DH hates managing the household accounts so I do those. Both of us cook, both of us clean, both of us do laundry and ironing depending on who has more time/more energy.

In our house, male/female gender stereotyping doesn't really come up: what needs to be done gets done by whoever does it best/hates it less.

It's the same in our house re: household chores SleepingLion (I do all the DIY and DH does the washing for example), but the question of full-time childcare is one issue (and a huge one IMO) that, beyond the family at least, seems to fall "neatly" into my lap.

Thank f**k we don't have any of this nonsense blighting our lives.

My MIL (who I really do love) saying "Aren't you lucky that my son does so much to help out?

Me "No".

MIL "But you could have been married to XYZ's husband, he does nothing!"

Me "I wouldn't have married a sexist arse."

I do what I feel like, when I feel like it, Ditto DH. We never argue about who does what.

Gay40 I do envy you as I assume you and your DP have chosen between yourselves who looks after DCs? But if either of you is the birth mother (I obviously know nothing about your life), then is it assumed that that person is the one who takes time off work (if that's what you've chosen to do?) for the childcare? I'd be interested to know how it works for you...

No, there's never any assumptions that the birth mother take precedence with time off work etc. We are very lucky, I think. Also DD's father has been a permanent and equal part of her life since she was born, and DP does not allow any suggestion that he isn't fully able to do everything we do - nappy changes, feeding, bathing etc when she was a baby.

DD has 3 parents, who all have an equal share in arranging her childcare, doing homework, school functions, time off when ill etc. However, the nature of my job means that it is generally easier for me to do the day to day things (going to Sports Day for an hour or so mid morning, sort of thing) than it is for the other two. If she is ill then a few texts fly round in the early morning to see who can be off the easiest: mostly me but not always.

It really is a situation where the person that can do the task best just gets on with it.

DP is actually the birth mother but I can't remember a time when that was relevant. I think most people have forgotten now - either that or they give a very good impression of it! Also, the organisations we all work for are very family friendly and it would be considered "bang out of order" for someone to suggest that one parent had more of a responsibility in any way.

Sounds a hell of a lot easier! And having three parents is always going to be a bonus for everyone involved (as long as it's all amicable, which it sounds like it is in your case).

Re: time off for ill children, my DH and I also take time off according to the least impact on our work, but immediately after DDs were born (and next one will be born), maternity leave clearly falls to me, and then time off after that (if we choose not to put them in childcare) is likely to fall on my shoulders.

Interesting Gay40. From your sample of one, having a parental set-up that differs from the Mum&Dad model makes it easier to avoid falling into pre-conceived roles.

SLeepingLion - I'd say that, mostly, that is the way we operate too. It was only when DH flung my non-earning status at me in a row that made me question how we do things. It is easy to say that domestic chores are divided along willingness/competancy lines but I did start to wonder how much inherited rubbish underpins us. Both of us cook, both of us clean, both of us do laundry - but I do a damn sight more of it. And the thinking & planning generally falls to me exclusively.

Partly that is due to our personalities (I am a planner, he wings it) but I now think a lot of it is due to us falling into this gender bias.

I am starting to think more seriously about working again. I think we were more equal albeit then.

Don't know where that albeit came from.

I fully accept that our situation, while sounding incredible to the outside world is the exception rather than the rule. It's very amicable.

However, I'm gong to register the fact that other people seem to have preconceived ideas about who does what, even in our all-female household. (This is people who don't know us well, obviously). Because I'm taller (and wider) people tend to assume I do the gardening and DIY, whereas DP does housework and cooking. DP can't cook and never cleans. I can't work the lawnmower. I think we are very equal.

Who cuts the DCs nails?

V. interesting thread. Not quite sure where my thoughts are with this. The above link is thought provoking.

I suspect my main issues are:

• ensuring self esteem preserved by Motherhood without this putting pressure on DS to achive XYZ not do ABC

• perfectionism ishoos

• housework expanding to fill time

• lack of concrete routines in some areas which lead to less ability to swap roles with DH

• the "cycle" of housework - no end result v the "glory DIY work" - painting a room etc

Whoever notices they need cutting, in whichever house DD is in at the time.

However for some reason I always arrange haircuts, but that's because DD's father is a skinhead and DP gets her hair done once in a blue moon, so I just take DD when I get mine done.

Simples.

This thread is so interesting. I'm a sahm and I have been questioning & questioning myself about this recently and I think it's time to start questioning dh! I think my first question is going to be 'if I worked full time outside our house in a nursery or pre-school would the chores in our house still be divided the way they are?' I think this pinpoints the problem pretty precisely. The problem is that the impression we both seem to have is that I'm physically in the house, therefore I do more of the chores. Given that I'm also caring for two under-three's this is clearly idiocy. So in answer to the op, I'm not sure I do assert them at all really. Interestingly I had hundreds of answers to the question 'how did you make your wedding feminist' not that I posted them as I was too busy with dcs .

On a slighty more flippant note my mum had a friend with 5 boys under 7. She said she once woke up in a cold sweat with the realization that she was responsible for 120 finger and toe nails! But then she was a chiropodist by profession so I guess this wasn't necessarily a gender divide thing!

My dad is a bit of a modern bloke, but thinks the dog is my mum's responsibility in terms of vet appointments and time off etc.

Because he's "at work" !!!!!!!!!

Yes Father dear, but so is she and she earns more than you.

Psychic burden - its a prefect phrase. That is EXACTLY what has been bugging me.

So much to think about......

'if I worked full time outside our house in a nursery or pre-school would the chores in our house still be divided the way they are?' = brilliant question

Another thing I've seen solidgoldbrass say lots of times is that each partner should have equal free time.

I've been reading What Mother's Do - especially when it looks like nothing and I think it is making me place a higher value on my role as a Mother and also on what I'm doing when DS is with me during the week (he has 3 days nursery, 2 days with me - the obv the weekend and DH is here).

One chapter is called "Being instantly interruptible" and another "I get nothing done all day"!

I love this bit:

We might notice a mother and toddler at a supermarket, for example. The mother is relating to her toddler in several ways simultaneously. She is guiding him into the kind of behaviour that she considers appropriate for his age in a public place. She is also demonstrating specific 'supermarket-behaviour', which includes not knocking things off the shelves and not filling up the basked with everything to hand, but choosing items and paying for them.

She is showing him her personal values when shopping, such as calculating prices or prioritising speed, and demonstrating how she relates to the check-out staff. She usually isn't teaching as such, but sharing her world with him, and it's very demanding. Everyting takes twice as long, and she has to keep switching her attention from the adult shopping world to the child world of her little companion. If a misunderstanding arises, it will be her job to mediate between the two worlds.

But now we come to the lack of understanding.

If we asked our mother in the supermarket what she was doing, she would almost certainly reply: 'My shopping'. If we asked the other shoppers and the check-out staff what they thought the mother was ding, most of them would answer: 'She was doing her shopping'.

Yet the mother was doing ever so much more than that. She was doing two jobs, not just one. The second job comes silently under the umbrella of the first. It has no separate name.

Tabouleh, any womon shopping with child/children is doing far more than 2 jobs all at once....she is thinking 'what next', she is wondering where stuff is', have I got a list, enough money, what a boring task this is, distracting a wailing/demanding/grizzly/bored/angry/tired/unhappy/ child, talking to said child, reinforcing good/bad social behaviour, asking said child questions, is being aware of safety issues and use of trolleys and other shoppers, this small activity is in reality a total mindfield....max-multi tasking.....packing shopping paying bill making it out of the shop in one piece with the rest of the day ahead.....
military operation about defines it I think,,,,,,(tongue in cheek)
It does have a name ...rearing the next generation....

Posie...' I dreamt about my first love last night, he was so much better evolved.'

I think you have something there ....evolved....and dreaming about men is so much easier than living with them :0)

'Tabouleh, any womon shopping with child/children is doing far more than 2 jobs all at once....she is thinking 'what next', she is wondering where stuff is', have I got a list, enough money, what a boring task this is, distracting a wailing/demanding/grizzly/bored/angry/tired/unhapp y/ child, talking to said child, reinforcing good/bad social behaviour, asking said child questions, is being aware of safety issues and use of trolleys and other shoppers, this small activity is in reality a total mindfield....max-multi tasking.....packing shopping paying bill making it out of the shop in one piece with the rest of the day ahead.....
military operation about defines it I think,,,,,,(tongue in cheek)
It does have a name ...rearing the next generation....'

None of these jobs is that hard though is it? I work in a nursery and do all this and it is still not as difficult as most jobsi have previously done.

But that's the point Sunny. None of it is hard per se - its the grinding relentlessness of it all and the fact that it never stops. My sister likened it to a treadmill - its not going too fast, its not too steep , its the fact that you can never get off. And of course, when sleep deprived with a new born, or on a bad day of shrivelled nerves, it just CAN be THAT hard.
ANd that's what my husband struggles to comprehend - because he just doesn't do it day in, day out.

Equal free time is vital. I mark the whole calander on alternative weekends to signify which one of us gets a half-day off that weekend - and I really try to stick to it. I am at my grouchiest when I've not got away for a while.

I don't think that's the point sunny, it's not 'hard', most of the time it's just boring & time consuming. The point is that it needs doing & it's mostly women in relationships that do it, even though they are often also working outside the home and/or looking after small children. The other point is that task like shopping get written off as 'just shopping' so people don't realize that the children are benefitting from it too.

Anyway I didn't quite understand your post. Do you mean that you work in a nursery & don't find that work hard, or you don't find the work of bringing upnyour own children hard?

Although none of the tasks I do in the day are difficult or intellectually challenging, I do actually find being a sahm the hardest job I've done precisely because it is a bit boring (although there are good bits too!) it is full on 24/7 and it matters so much to me that I bring up two happy healthy little girls! Dh on the other hand has intellectually stimulatingnwork, with other adults, that he can leave behind him at the end of the day and that he gets paid for! And for this he also seems to be entitled to abdicate responsibility for running the house & organizing childcare. He does help, but doesn't seem to be his job iyswim.

I think it's really important never fall into the trap of thinking that the one at home with the DCs is somehow having time that is 'unequal to paid work'.

So for instance, with issues such as having to deal with DCs during the night me and DH take equal responsibility because

1)sleep deprivation is just as difficult for the person looking after DCs as for the person at work (sometimes more difficult)
2) the person with the DCs is enabling the other partner to work and so has equal rights to as much rest as possible

I'm shocked by how many of my female friends think that sleep deprivation should be their suffering alone because their DH 'works'. I'm always trying to persuade them that it should be dealt with jointly (think some of my friends' DHs think I'm a pain which doesn't bother me )